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Post by Dale Jackson on Apr 6, 2007 7:39:51 GMT -5
I say no.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 7:43:26 GMT -5
I say "YES". I have been to many different types of services. The contemporary services do get bodies in the pews, and in many cases, keep them there. As long as the word is pure, the delivery doesn't matter.
The bible says "Where two or more are gathered in HIS NAME."
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Post by Chris Hobbs on Apr 6, 2007 7:46:38 GMT -5
Buddy Jesus says 'heck yes!'
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 7:48:51 GMT -5
Buddy Jesus says 'heck yes!' Watch out, lawman will try and cast Loki on you.
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Post by huntsvilleguest on Apr 6, 2007 8:09:37 GMT -5
there should absoulutely be different styles and approaches to reach different people....especially adolescents.....even smart marketing people know you must get on their level to reach them.....the difference is you can never add to or take away from the word ....even the bible states anyone who does so will be harshly judged in the end......as long as that true message is not watered down....the rap, rock...whatever should not matter...the problem....the venue is like money.....it is neither good nor bad...it's what you do with it
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Post by richbrout on Apr 6, 2007 8:20:06 GMT -5
something about selling Jesus in the same manner you sell Coke doesn't seem right.
I think its this whole marketing of Jesus that is the same problem with advertising---- NO SUBSTANCE.
If more people got up and tried to help other people who are suffering-say like Mother Theresa----the love of Christ shows through them and people are drawn to that.
Much like when Gandhi said that when you are on the side of good and right...its amazing how people are constantly just popping up to help. I personally think American Christianity could learn alot from the Mahtma- i.e. using the message of Christ and WORKING to folllow it and improving people's lives.
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Post by tsolive on Apr 6, 2007 8:32:03 GMT -5
What do you consider "traditional"? I don't remember reading anything about the disciples singing "Worthy Is The Lamb" before the crucifixion or "How Great Thou Art" on the third day Why are you guys limiting the discussion to "rap"? I don't care for rap. Others do and it reaches them and that's the way it should be. But I really do like the current contemporary bands like Jars of Clay and they can rock when they want to and be low key when they want to. Most bands like them don't just make music, they live the Word through acts and by example. And that's what effects people after they've been touched by their music. Oh,...in regard to the statement made on the show, "God doesn't need help"....That's true, but we are by His design to be the one's who do the work of reaching out to the world. And I just read the statement about Mother Theresa and Gandhi...Are you saying that you stay inside all day and starve yourself nearly to death? That may be YOUR calling but it obviously isn't everybody else's. And I really don't think you're going to reach very many people in that endeavor.
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Kat
Apprentice Cog
Birth. Life. Death. Repeat.
Posts: 143
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Post by Kat on Apr 6, 2007 8:53:00 GMT -5
I say no, also. A worship service should be just that--worship.
Fellowship services (which I include so-called 'contemporary' service) are not worship, they are designed for fellowship/socializing. Lots of difference in my mind. I don't care what is done music-wise, etc at a fellowship service.
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Post by bgammon on Apr 6, 2007 8:56:25 GMT -5
I don't think trying to find an approach that helps plant a seed in people that normally may never have had that door opened is in no way trying to "sell" it......the most effective teachers in school classrooms are usually the ones who get creative and find ways to teach in a manner that keeps kids interested...who could deny that you learn more when somethings interests you......this is just a means to plant that seed......for the ones that respond....then they will continue to want to learn more .....and that should be the goal
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Post by jayliewow on Apr 6, 2007 8:59:19 GMT -5
I say no, also. A worship service should be just that--worship. Fellowship services (which I include so-called 'contemporary' service) are not worship, they are designed for fellowship/socializing. Lots of difference in my mind. I don't care what is done music-wise, etc at a fellowship service. Yes, a worship service should be worship, however are you prepared to define "worship". Would not your method of worship differ from someone elses method of worship? I'm a little surprised at those who say no to this. Maybe this will be a weak correlation, but part of the reason the Islamic faith is so violent is because unlike the bible the koran has never been open for "reinterpretation". This means everything in the koran is taken as literal. Our very vocabulary in day to day life has seen considerable changes over the years. Music styles have evolved just like everything else. My intent is not to "knock" anyone who believes in a "traditional" worship service, but I think you have to be a little less "close minded" (there I SAID IT), about others who have different thoughts and ways of reaching out than yourself.
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Post by phinehas on Apr 6, 2007 9:02:27 GMT -5
richbrout-
What makes you so sure that Americans are not helping other people that are suffering? Every church I have been in has numerous programs that specifically help other people for finanical needs and otherwise.
What is it that you are doing in your church that you think isn't being done in other churches?
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 9:04:16 GMT -5
Cookie Cutter Christianity, jay
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Post by jayliewow on Apr 6, 2007 9:07:32 GMT -5
YAY, I'm no longer a newbie cog!!!
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Kat
Apprentice Cog
Birth. Life. Death. Repeat.
Posts: 143
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Post by Kat on Apr 6, 2007 10:12:38 GMT -5
I say no, also. A worship service should be just that--worship. Fellowship services (which I include so-called 'contemporary' service) are not worship, they are designed for fellowship/socializing. Lots of difference in my mind. I don't care what is done music-wise, etc at a fellowship service. Yes, a worship service should be worship, however are you prepared to define "worship". Would not your method of worship differ from someone elses method of worship? I'm a little surprised at those who say no to this. Maybe this will be a weak correlation, but part of the reason the Islamic faith is so violent is because unlike the bible the koran has never been open for "reinterpretation". This means everything in the koran is taken as literal. Our very vocabulary in day to day life has seen considerable changes over the years. Music styles have evolved just like everything else. My intent is not to "knock" anyone who believes in a "traditional" worship service, but I think you have to be a little less "close minded" (there I SAID IT), about others who have different thoughts and ways of reaching out than yourself. Considering I haven't been to church (other than weddings, funerals or family reunions) in over 20 years.... But when I say traditional, I'm speaking of the Southern Baptist church services that I grew up with or the United Methodist services where I sang with the choir during my HS years. There was an anthem, a couple of (traditional) hymns, announcements, the sermon, another hymn or two, the invitation, the offering and the closing prayers. Solemn, yes. Very traditional, yes. Some might say boring; they are welcome to their 'contemporary' services (which are really fellowship meetings, IMHO). I attended the teen meetings on Wednesday and Sunday nights to enjoy the fellowship of the other teens. Not that I've ever been a fan of 'Christian rock', but if it had been played, I would have been there anyway.... So, call me old-fashioned in my opinion as to what a worship service should be. I was raised to believe that the act of worship is a solemn thing.
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rich
Cog in Training
Posts: 70
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Post by rich on Apr 6, 2007 10:16:23 GMT -5
Sorry for the repost if you've read the other thread. I originally intended to post this here. I probably forum jump too much. Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn - as I only caught part of the show this morning and don't want to misspeak regarding Dale's point of view - but I totally see where Dale is coming from on this. I'm not a Christian, but I was raised in the church. I still have a deep and abiding love for certain ecclesiastical things, like cathedrals, monasteries, the respect for those that lead a simple, devoted life of service ... but, even as a teen in a rather informal, rural southern baptist church, one of the things that most annoyed me was the feeling like I was being condescended to with all of the hip lingo and the "let's rock out for Christ" stuff. And contemporary Christian music always drove me up the wall with it's sugary-sweetness and such. Part of what I loved about (certain) churches was the solemnity and the otherness that set it apart from worldly things. I appreciated the spirituality, the reverence and a certain degree of formality and decorum. I realize not everyone is like that and that not everyone responds to that sort of thing, but I did and I felt cheated when things got too "hip" or too "cool." And part of that is the inherent falsehood of it ... older white people trying to seem hip and cool usually strikes kids as lame, as Dale put it, and makes them feel patronized. But, some people can't relate, so I do see the need to try and reach your audience. But, I'm weird and love antiquity and the trappings of spirituality and religion and the history behind the church and such. Lends things a certain weight and gravity to me. All terribly ironic considering I'm an agnostic with a strong anti-authoritarian streak.
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rich
Cog in Training
Posts: 70
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Post by rich on Apr 6, 2007 17:04:38 GMT -5
I'm also hating the fact that Chris beat me to the punch and posted the Buddy Christ before I logged in this morning. Was the first thing I thought of while listening to the show.
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 6, 2007 17:08:52 GMT -5
I believe I should get a say in this too. I'm an 18 year old christian and I believe that tailoring the Word to fit those around you is perfectly fine. In Centerpoint there is a church group called "The Basement" run by people in their teens and in their twenties. They play rap music, rock music and get into the spirit of the Lord. And 75% or better of the people praising God in there are ex-junkies to some drug. At my youth group (that I just got kicked out of for really no reason) there is an entire floor for the youth to hang out and have fun. We get free food, listen to music, play video games, and even have access to the internet. There is even a basketball court for others whom are more athletic. Is it wrong for us to do that? I say not because we get new people in all the time.
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Post by Chris Hobbs on Apr 6, 2007 17:11:40 GMT -5
Did someone say free food and basketball? Where do I sign up?
I'm very interested in the story behind you getting "kicked out" of your youth group. How the hell does that happen?
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 6, 2007 17:26:44 GMT -5
We went on a youth trip to Atlanta called "Dare 2 Share", and it was really fun. The youth pastor's wife has this song that she sings and it's like nails on a chalk board. So a buddy of mine and I run off as a joke when she starts singing it to a youth group from somewhere else. As we ran we tossed our hats off to run faster. Another friend calles me on my cell and informs my freind and I that we are in trouble. So we casually walk back, and find out that our headgear got swiped by the youth pastor's wife. We calmly ask for it back. I did this because the hat wasn't mine; my friend did this because it was an expensive hat and didn't want it damaged. They told us no. The youth pastor's oldest son walks up and tells us what we did was wrong and that we should get into trouble. I tell him to screw that. My hatless friend uses the f word and the youth pastor's son goes to tattle (even though he's 17...). So he pulls myself, my friend, and my friend's girlfriend(the owner of said borrowed hat) aside and scolds us and tells my friend to apologise for saying the curse. He does, but all three of us demand our hats back. An fifteen minutes later we recieve them. When we return home from the trip the trio above get's two rule infractions: disrespect, and not going somewhere in a group of three. For my two friends this is their third offense and they get suspened. The girlfriend, later, gets in trouble again and is kicked out. Then this Wednesday night I hug my girlfriend and break the PDA(Public Displays of Affection) rule and get suspended for two weeks. and this isn't the first time something like this has happened.
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Post by Chris Hobbs on Apr 6, 2007 17:34:23 GMT -5
Nevermind. I don't want to sign up anymore.
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 6, 2007 17:40:21 GMT -5
It's like signing up for a land lease without reading the paper with a magnafying glass. And now if I want to go back (yeah right...) I have to have a conference with my parents, the youth pastor, his wife, and the pastor of the church about my "negative behavior".
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 17:46:18 GMT -5
Wouldn't traditional church be the Latin Mass?
Even that ol' time religion was new and radical once.
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 6, 2007 21:24:58 GMT -5
Well at some point every church changed to be accepted by the people that came there. Even if you don't believe in evolution, there are always changes in humanity it's self.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 7, 2007 0:52:20 GMT -5
We went on a youth trip to Atlanta called "Dare 2 Share", and it was really fun. The youth pastor's wife has this song that she sings and it's like nails on a chalk board. So a buddy of mine and I run off as a joke when she starts singing it to a youth group from somewhere else. As we ran we tossed our hats off to run faster. Another friend calles me on my cell and informs my freind and I that we are in trouble. So we casually walk back, and find out that our headgear got swiped by the youth pastor's wife. We calmly ask for it back. I did this because the hat wasn't mine; my friend did this because it was an expensive hat and didn't want it damaged. They told us no. The youth pastor's oldest son walks up and tells us what we did was wrong and that we should get into trouble. I tell him to screw that. My hatless friend uses the f word and the youth pastor's son goes to tattle (even though he's 17...). So he pulls myself, my friend, and my friend's girlfriend(the owner of said borrowed hat) aside and scolds us and tells my friend to apologise for saying the curse. He does, but all three of us demand our hats back. An fifteen minutes later we recieve them. When we return home from the trip the trio above get's two rule infractions: disrespect, and not going somewhere in a group of three. For my two friends this is their third offense and they get suspened. The girlfriend, later, gets in trouble again and is kicked out. Then this Wednesday night I hug my girlfriend and break the PDA(Public Displays of Affection) rule and get suspended for two weeks. and this isn't the first time something like this has happened. that isn't a youth ministery, that is a Jim Jones training camp.
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 7, 2007 10:04:09 GMT -5
No...the youth group WENT ON A TRIP to Dare 2 Share.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 7, 2007 10:08:22 GMT -5
No, sweetie, any group that tries to control it's youth with such stringent arbitrary rules smacks of a cult training camp. Read up on some of the things Jim Jones used to control his followers.
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 7, 2007 10:12:06 GMT -5
Oh, I just now remember him. Crazy guy, made Jonestown. Yeah, poisoned kool-aid and all.
My first thought was you making fun of D2S, which really wouldn't bother me.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 7, 2007 10:16:48 GMT -5
No, i used to love the group trips we made with our youth group. It was so much fun meeting people from all over the country and sometimes, for other countries. I was just thinking the "No touching" and the other thinks you described. I would run for my life, for real not in joking, at a nails on a chalk board voice. Almost reminds me of my sweet Aunt Bessie. She couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, but the preacher would let her sing with the choir every Sunday, because it made her happy.
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waste
Newbie Cog
"May God have mercy on my enemies, because I surea as hell won't!" - General George S. Patton
Posts: 34
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Post by waste on Apr 7, 2007 10:21:57 GMT -5
But that's a good thing, she was praising God. The youth pastor's wife did it because she thought it was a good song. It isn't.
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Post by richbrout on Apr 7, 2007 14:07:37 GMT -5
Phin-
I think the Multi million dollar facilities that these churches build are a red flag that they might be missing the message. I mean if the facilities were more modest, thats alot of poor that could be fed. Do Churches REALLY need a gym?
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