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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 9:35:47 GMT -5
You really don't understand what I'm saying. It really is above your head. I shouldn't have wasted my time responding. I'm not your Sunday school teacher. We'll maybe I've sparked some interest that will lead you to reading and understanding the Bible from a more rational viewpoint. I know exactly what you're doing. You're trying to discredit Scripture by asserting that it's filled with inconsistancies. I took the example you posted in such an attempt and showed clearly and logically how that perfectly complemented what Paul wrote. Now, let me go back and address what you said in your previous post. I felt this needed to be addressed first.
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Post by espy on Apr 11, 2007 9:47:38 GMT -5
Zoomixer, this could go on forever and personally I cant stand to see it anymore, it completely takes the enjoyment out of these forums.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 11, 2007 9:54:20 GMT -5
Zoomixer, this could go on forever and personally I cant stand to see it anymore, it completely takes the enjoyment out of these forums. oh, come on, espy...aren't all opinion threads like that? how many of these things end up with...."oh, you are right, I have been soooo wrong....it was so ignorant of me to ever disagree with you."? it's still fun...
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cw
Cog in Training
Posts: 60
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Post by cw on Apr 11, 2007 10:05:28 GMT -5
That's no metaphor, it's a fact. Gal 3:24-25 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. NKJV Yep, that's what American Evangelicals believe. What you really have is different authors saying different things: James 2:20-24 (King James Version) 20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Your own personal inability to understand does not invalidate the truth of the words. You yourself are showing your faith by your works on these threads. Your faith produces those works and they in turn display to all here your faith. Even the most rabid atheist has faith that when they kick the chair out from under them the noose will prevent them from touching ground. In which case their faith was in only what they could see and reason with their own minds. They are their own gods.
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Post by espy on Apr 11, 2007 10:05:33 GMT -5
opinions are fine, what heshe does is Try to derail the topic and bash Christianity. I dont think that is what forums are for, but I may be wrong. When things come to an impasse most of us agree to disagree, heshe's response is to go on about how right heshe is and how brainwashed we are.
And they always, no matter what the topic is, center around atheism. What this heshe is, is a Troll looking to start something on a majority Christan forum. That is heshe's only purpose here.
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 10:11:13 GMT -5
1) James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17,18); Yet later and much clearer it says you need works. Just like Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount Already addressed what James said. I can only assume that you are referring to Matthew 5:16. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." Is this the verse you are referring to? This verse is obviously not dealing with the issue of salvation or justification. Let me know if you're talking about different verses. Already addressed James. Show me where God credited righteousness to Abraham based on his faith and works. It is clear that Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith. So you're saying we can't know what he meant? If you're saying that then you've just destroyed your own argument that "The Bible is filled with backbiting and contradictions between different authors. Some are responding to earlier teachings. Some of them we probably don't have the slightest clue what they originally meant. " If we can't know for sure what they meant then we can't know for sure if they are contradicting each other. Incorrect. Try again. ;D We've already determined in other threads that you only consider someone objective if they agree with what you already believe.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 11, 2007 10:17:13 GMT -5
zoomixer...
I would say that Abraham showed his faith by what he DID...then God "imputed unto him righteousness"...i see it as the difference between a work of faith (which saves) and a work of merit (which does not save)...
i cannot separate faith from the works that result from it...and manifest it...
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 10:18:01 GMT -5
Zoomixer, this could go on forever and personally I cant stand to see it anymore, it completely takes the enjoyment out of these forums. It's good for me. It teaches me to dig deep to defend what I believe. No matter what we all think of Blondie, the attacks it raises are attacks that Christians need to know how to respond to. I don't in any way expect to change Blondie's mind or heart. That's not my job. My job is to defend the faith to the best of my limited ability and, by doing so, I'm leaving Blondie without excuse when it stands before God. Blondie desperately wants to believe that Christianity is a hoax and is obviously holds some bitterness towards Christians. Why else would it make such relentless attacks on Christianity? It's not content to disagree and try, through the use of logical, well-formed arguments, to change our minds. Instead it has to degrade and insult any idea or person that aligns themselves with Christianity.
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Post by phinehas on Apr 11, 2007 10:23:30 GMT -5
It will become counter productive for you as well at some point. We will hang around and wait for you to catch up.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 11, 2007 10:25:48 GMT -5
It will become counter productive for you as well at some point. We will hang around and wait for you to catch up. Look on the bright side...according to blondie, he only has 149.99 years to go.....
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Post by espy on Apr 11, 2007 10:31:18 GMT -5
Zoomixer, this could go on forever and personally I cant stand to see it anymore, it completely takes the enjoyment out of these forums. It's good for me. It teaches me to dig deep to defend what I believe. No matter what we all think of Blondie, the attacks it raises are attacks that Christians need to know how to respond to. I don't in any way expect to change Blondie's mind or heart. That's not my job. My job is to defend the faith to the best of my limited ability and, by doing so, I'm leaving Blondie without excuse when it stands before God. Blondie desperately wants to believe that Christianity is a hoax and is obviously holds some bitterness towards Christians. Why else would it make such relentless attacks on Christianity? It's not content to disagree and try, through the use of logical, well-formed arguments, to change our minds. Instead it has to degrade and insult any idea or person that aligns themselves with Christianity. Your right..........and you do a good job at defending our faith, I just cant argue with someone like that, I already have to do that with my six year old.
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 10:31:53 GMT -5
zoomixer... I would say that Abraham showed his faith by what he DID...then God "imputed unto him righteousness"...i see it as the difference between a work of faith (which saves) and a work of merit (which does not save)... i cannot separate faith from the works that result from it...and manifest it... I think we are saying the same thing but I'm not completely sure. Abrahams works are an outpouring and result of his faith but it is not his works that made him righteous. I think Gen. 15:6 makes that clear. I think that's basically what you're saying but I do agree "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26)
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 10:32:46 GMT -5
It will become counter productive for you as well at some point. We will hang around and wait for you to catch up. You might not have to wait too long!!! ;D
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Post by lawman on Apr 11, 2007 10:41:01 GMT -5
Zoomixer, this could go on forever and personally I cant stand to see it anymore, it completely takes the enjoyment out of these forums. It's good for me. It teaches me to dig deep to defend what I believe. No matter what we all think of Blondie, the attacks it raises are attacks that Christians need to know how to respond to. I don't in any way expect to change Blondie's mind or heart. That's not my job. My job is to defend the faith to the best of my limited ability and, by doing so, I'm leaving Blondie without excuse when it stands before God. Blondie desperately wants to believe that Christianity is a hoax and is obviously holds some bitterness towards Christians. Why else would it make such relentless attacks on Christianity? It's not content to disagree and try, through the use of logical, well-formed arguments, to change our minds. Instead it has to degrade and insult any idea or person that aligns themselves with Christianity. Your representing a Christian?? and dis-respecting 'blondie' by calling him or her 'it' is not Godly, I can tell you that for sure! -- and I know I have been angered sometimes to react UnGodly also......but that doesn't make it right either!
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Post by phinehas on Apr 11, 2007 10:41:54 GMT -5
"Look on the bright side...according to blondie, he only has 149.99 years to go....."
Is that when the human caused global warming is going to destroy all life forms on earth, except for the cockroaches of course?
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Post by phinehas on Apr 11, 2007 10:47:24 GMT -5
lawman, you are nitpicking. Blondie has been asked numerous times to clarify his/her gender. Sometimes people get lazy and tire of having to type that out every time.
I say we all refer to blondie as a he and he can correct it at that point.
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 10:48:09 GMT -5
Your representing a Christian?? and dis-respecting 'blondie' by calling him or her 'it' is not Godly, I can tell you that for sure! -- and I know I have been angered sometimes to react UnGodly also......but that doesn't make it right either! lawman. Nice to have stop in to throw some insults around. It has yet to be determined what gender Blondie actually is. How else should I refer to Blondie?
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cw
Cog in Training
Posts: 60
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Post by cw on Apr 11, 2007 10:52:31 GMT -5
One only defends their beliefs with personal attacks and such when they are loosing faith in what they believe.
If we can look past it and manifest the Love of God the Holy Spirit will have much more room to work in that persons heart to bring them to repentance.
IMO.
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Post by blondie on Apr 11, 2007 10:55:18 GMT -5
Zoomixer, this could go on forever and personally I cant stand to see it anymore, it completely takes the enjoyment out of these forums. It's good for me. It teaches me to dig deep to defend what I believe. No matter what we all think of Blondie, the attacks it raises are attacks that Christians need to know how to respond to. I don't in any way expect to change Blondie's mind or heart. That's not my job. My job is to defend the faith to the best of my limited ability and, by doing so, I'm leaving Blondie without excuse when it stands before God. Blondie desperately wants to believe that Christianity is a hoax and is obviously holds some bitterness towards Christians. Why else would it make such relentless attacks on Christianity? It's not content to disagree and try, through the use of logical, well-formed arguments, to change our minds. Instead it has to degrade and insult any idea or person that aligns themselves with Christianity. My point is that the "salvation by faith" idea is not a universal Christian concept. There may not be any universal Christian concepts. Catholics don't believe it. Lots of Evangelicals think homosexuals are going to hell even though they are Christian and have faith. This is a very Chick Comics idea. I'm not sure of its origin. Martin Luther? The idea that the only "true" Christianity is American Evangelicalism as stated by American Evangelicals is no more valid that Mormonism is the only true Christianity as stated by Mormons. You just go to American Evangelical sources to "prove" American Evangelical dogma. But you can't go anywhere else because nobody else believes it.
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Post by lawman on Apr 11, 2007 10:57:38 GMT -5
lawman, you are nitpicking. Blondie has been asked numerous times to clarify his/her gender. Sometimes people get lazy and tire of having to type that out every time. I say we all refer to blondie as a he and he can correct it at that point. That would be respectful......Christian the responsibility to 'love our enemies' and you know I have had as much trouble doing that as probably anyone?!
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Post by lawman on Apr 11, 2007 10:59:37 GMT -5
Left out Words----Christians have the responsibility.....
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 11:02:25 GMT -5
lawman, you are nitpicking. Blondie has been asked numerous times to clarify his/her gender. Sometimes people get lazy and tire of having to type that out every time. I say we all refer to blondie as a he and he can correct it at that point. That would be respectful......Christian the responsibility to 'love our enemies' and you know I have had as much trouble doing that as probably anyone?! Alright. Then we can all be in agreement. We will refer to Blondie as a "He" until given reason to do otherwise. Maybe we should start a poll, though just to get a forum consensus. If we get a consensus then we can know for a fact that Blondie is indeed a "He" and anyone who disagrees can be a "Blondie Gender Denier"!!!!! ;D
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 11:28:32 GMT -5
My point is that the "salvation by faith" idea is not a universal Christian concept. There may not be any universal Christian concepts. That would be an understandable concern and I could see how, as an Atheist, you would object to that. I object to it but I can't help what people believe. We all know that people will believe what they believe to be true Here's my defense to that as someone who claims to be a follower of God. I've listed before what I believe. I believe that that God has revealed himself to mankind any several different ways. One of the most revealing ways would be the 66 books contained in "Protestant Canon" (here after refereed to as the Bible) if you will. Since I believe in the existence of a divine creator and since I believe that he has revealed Himself to us through his creation and through the Bible, the final authority on all matters for me is His revelation. It is not as important what other people think the Bible means about a certain idea so much as what the Bible itself says about that idea. Scripture says that we (Christians) have been given everything we need to live God-glorifying lives (rough paraphrase for those nit-pickers) so I know that I don't have to depend on what a certain man, institution, or organization thinks about the Bible and what it is supposed to mean. That being said, I know that throughout history, God has used men to help the Biblical "layman" if you will understand what is being said but the ultimate authority is the Bible. The reason I used John MacArthur before is because he uses Scripture to explain Scripture which makes the most sense. There will always be people who will try to distort the Bible for either personal reasons or out of sheer ignorance. These are issues that really deserve their own threads. I don't want to get off track by debating these. I assume you are referring to the idea of justification by faith alone? Well, I've presented an argument that traces it back to at least Moses/the writer of Genesis. So, this is by no means a "new" idea. You really should no better than to make such all-encompassing statements like these. It's like saying everyone that lives in Blount County is trailer trash. You might get that impression some times when driving through certain areas but it's obviously not true. As I stated above, the final authority for Christians should be the Bible.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 11, 2007 11:47:41 GMT -5
I think we are saying the same thing but I'm not completely sure. Abrahams works are an outpouring and result of his faith but it is not his works that made him righteous. I think Gen. 15:6 makes that clear. I think that's basically what you're saying but I do agree "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26) Yeah...we seem to be together...I also take note of that great registry of faithful folks in Hebrews 11...and what they "did" to manifest their faith...
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Post by blondie on Apr 11, 2007 11:50:53 GMT -5
I've listed before what I believe. I believe that that God has revealed himself to mankind any several different ways. One of the most revealing ways would be the 66 books contained in "Protestant Canon" (here after refereed to as the Bible) if you will. Right, but that's totally arbitrary. My belief system, science and history, have self-correcting mechanisms. Also almost everyone believes in science and history. Not even all Christians believe that the Protestant Canon is the one true Bible. Since I believe in the existence of a divine creator and since I believe that he has revealed Himself to us through his creation and through the Bible, the final authority on all matters for me is His revelation. Bingo, bingo dammit, bingo. All religious belief is based on divine revelation. I often just jump right to this but nobody ever gets it. The big question is whose divine revelation, if anybodies', are we believe? There's no answer. There's no higher authority by which to judge a divine revelation. It's totally subjective. I've It is not as important what other people think the Bible means about a certain idea so much as what the Bible itself says about that idea. Scripture says that we (Christians) have been given everything we need to live God-glorifying lives (rough paraphrase for those nit-pickers) so I know that I don't have to depend on what a certain man, institution, or organization thinks about the Bible and what it is supposed to mean. That being said, I know that throughout history, God has used men to help the Biblical "layman" if you will understand what is being said but the ultimate authority is the Bible. The reason I used John MacArthur before is because he uses Scripture to explain Scripture which makes the most sense. There will always be people who will try to distort the Bible for either personal reasons or out of sheer ignorance. Equally sincere people find very different things in the Bible. There is no universal standard. Certainly not the American Evangelical standard. Nothing personal, but I call this master-race theology. Do you honestly believe the Baptists have some special insight the Catholics or Eastern Orthodox don't have? I believe scholars using science and history DO have a special insight. Objectivity. the final authority for Christians should be the Bible. For one thing this is Protestant dogma. And second nobody can agree on what the Bible says.
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 11:57:47 GMT -5
Yeah...we seem to be together...I also take note of that great registry of faithful folks in Hebrews 11...and what they "did" to manifest their faith... Exactly. This actually goes against Blondie's previous declaration that a Christian is "anyone who sincerely believes they are one." Anyone can say they are a Christian but without the evidence in their lives supporting such a claim then there is reason to doubt their claim.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 11, 2007 12:17:14 GMT -5
This actually goes against Blondie's previous declaration I have finally ceased to be concerned about that....not that I ever was...
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Post by zoomixer on Apr 11, 2007 12:48:50 GMT -5
I've listed before what I believe. I believe that that God has revealed himself to mankind any several different ways. One of the most revealing ways would be the 66 books contained in "Protestant Canon" (here after refereed to as the Bible) if you will. Right, but that's totally arbitrary. My belief system, science and history, have self-correcting mechanisms. Also almost everyone believes in science and history. Not even all Christians believe that the Protestant Canon is the one true Bible. Bingo, bingo dammit, bingo. All religious belief is based on divine revelation. I often just jump right to this but nobody ever gets it. The big question is whose divine revelation, if anybodies', are we believe? There's no answer. There's no higher authority by which to judge a divine revelation. It's totally subjective. Equally sincere people find very different things in the Bible. There is no universal standard. Certainly not the American Evangelical standard. Nothing personal, but I call this master-race theology. Do you honestly believe the Baptists have some special insight the Catholics or Eastern Orthodox don't have? I believe scholars using science and history DO have a special insight. Objectivity. the final authority for Christians should be the Bible. For one thing this is Protestant dogma. And second nobody can agree on what the Bible says. Yes!!!! We're finally getting somewhere! There's alot of great questions in here that probably deserve their own threads! I don't have time to get into these questions as much as they need so I'll come back and touch on these tonight......after 'Lost' ;D
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