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Post by espy on Apr 8, 2007 9:57:47 GMT -5
Hey you were right! I enjoyed this site! hugequestions.com/This guy is s fruitcake! I haven't been so entertained in a long time. I know you call him a fruitcake, but these videos are far more convincing to me than the articles in popular mechanics....so I am officially out of this conversation.....because in my mind the jury is out...........
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 8, 2007 12:11:11 GMT -5
I don't recall the "America under attack" statements before the plane hit the Pentagon...
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Post by W.O.M.I on Apr 8, 2007 14:53:39 GMT -5
If we're all talking about the same incident, I think it was Scott McClellan who walked over to the President and whispered in his ear the attacks on the WTC.
I seem to recall that McClellan himself has said that he told the President "America is under attack." or "We're under attack".
One plane hitting the WTC could just have been a case of pilot error or some other rational, if tragic, explanation. Two, in my mind, would constitute a deliberate act of war against us.
At the time, neither Bush nor anyone else knew who was behind the attacks. Maybe some had their suspicions, but can you really think anyone knew for certain? Were the attacks over or were there more to come and, if so, how many more? Weren't there something like 7500 flights either airborne over the US or inbound to it at that time? I think it's far too much to expect anyone to be able to get their arms around the situation in the short time frame we're talking about here, given the lack of information available at that time. Hell we're five plus years removed from the attacks and there are still questions- legitimate questions, not the ravings of Alex Jones- about that morning.
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Post by solomon on Apr 9, 2007 12:38:11 GMT -5
Hey don't kick Alex Jones W.O.M.I that man would blow you out of the water when it comes to patriotism and 9-11. If somebody would just go to www.infowars.com/ and purchase some of his documentaries they would learn a wealth of conservative information that is not widely documented by neo-con lap dog "talk radio" shows across america. Alex Jones was the guy that infiltrated the Bohemian Grove. We would all do well to listen to some of "the ravings of Alex Jones".
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Post by solomon on Apr 9, 2007 12:47:04 GMT -5
WORLD TRADE CENTER 7. THE ELEPHANT IN THE LIVING ROOM FOR THOSE FOLKS THAT SWALLOW EVERYTHING THE MEDIA AND GOVERNMENT FEEDS THEM. NEVER FORGET.........................................NO PLANE HIT WTC 7 killtown.911review.org/wtc7.htmlSome idiots on this post deserve the dictatorship they defend blindly. NEVER TURN IN YOUR FIREARMS!!!!!
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Post by solomon on Apr 9, 2007 12:55:54 GMT -5
If some of you guys have some time go to this link and you can watch numerous controversial documentaries about 9-11 for 100% free. You don't have to purchase anything. Don't believe a word I'm telling you. Check it out for yourself and see what you think. www.universalseed.org/main.aspI don't think Bush or any other of the big dogs in this country are idiots at all. I think they know exactly what they are doing. Acts 17:30 (KJV) 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17:31 (KJV) 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 9, 2007 13:33:55 GMT -5
OK, One very last time, solomon. & was SEVERELY damaged on the corner facing the twins. The design of the building placed most of the weight of the building on the supports ON THE SIDE THAT WAS DAMAGED. There were fuel storage tanks in the building (a building that size would hold THOUSANDS of gallons of fuel in it's tanks). I have seen things that say the building lessee said to take the building down, and I have seen things to counter that. Either way, whether from the sever damage, or the lessee having it taken down, neither thing makes me believe that the government had anything to do with it. I will not respond to your nutty "the government blew up New York" theories.
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Post by W.O.M.I on Apr 9, 2007 15:45:21 GMT -5
Alex Jones is a stark raving idiot.
He's no better than the folks who, back in the Clinton years, said that Clinton was running drugs from a small airport outside Little Rock and was ordering Mafia-style "hits" on his detractors.
I know for a fact that he wasn't ordering hits because I'm still alive.
Jones is also a coward. He's refused to debate those who disagree with him on many more than one occasion. I'd say to Jones what I say to the global warming hysterics and the Darwiniacs: if the case for your point of view is so good, why not debate it and expose the 'skeptics' as the ignoramuses you think they are?
As for WTC 7, replace the building with a 47 story tall, four legged stool. Remove one of the legs. Does the stool still stand?
Of course not...especially considering how top-heavy the building was by design and made more so by the removal of much of it's supporting structure due to the debris field from WTC 1 and 2.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 9, 2007 23:41:21 GMT -5
subtleties, you don't have to totally freak out to make some sort of facial expression, unless he's the best poker player on earth. No one hearing about airplanes hitting the world trade center is going to have a completely blank face. If the President needed to avoid criticism in this spot and knew the attack was coming, why was he in public at all? Why not be conveniently hidden within AF1 in the air somewhere. Back to the conversation in general, why in the world would the US have done this to itself? To attack Afghanistan to provide a smokescreen for a battle in Iraq? And why attack Iraq? For oil? Oil that goes on the world market and is bought at the same price regardless of where it comes from? Revenge for the assasination attempt on Bush41? Wouldn't there have been easier and less politically damaging ways to do that? None of the conspiracy theories make sense. Where are the people or the planes for that matter that hit the Pennsylvania field and the Pentagon? Why attack the Pentagon, why not some civilian location in Washington?
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 10, 2007 3:52:29 GMT -5
tusker, you have put way too much energy into thinking about all this to a reasonable conclusion, proving that it is soooooo much easier to just believe that America and Bush suck, and get on with life, miserable as it is...
(I think you are right on the mark with all points)
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 10, 2007 11:01:20 GMT -5
subtleties, you don't have to totally freak out to make some sort of facial expression, unless he's the best poker player on earth. No one hearing about airplanes hitting the world trade center is going to have a completely blank face. If the President needed to avoid criticism in this spot and knew the attack was coming, why was he in public at all? Why not be conveniently hidden within AF1 in the air somewhere. Back to the conversation in general, why in the world would the US have done this to itself? To attack Afghanistan to provide a smokescreen for a battle in Iraq? And why attack Iraq? For oil? Oil that goes on the world market and is bought at the same price regardless of where it comes from? Revenge for the assasination attempt on Bush41? Wouldn't there have been easier and less politically damaging ways to do that? None of the conspiracy theories make sense. Where are the people or the planes for that matter that hit the Pennsylvania field and the Pentagon? Why attack the Pentagon, why not some civilian location in Washington? Just smile and nod and agree the the Jews, the illegals and GWB conspired to blow up New York and SLOWLY back away. Also, it might keep "THEM" calm is you allude to the fact that the Earth is flat & the governments of the world are conspiring to keep people from finding out.
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Post by espy on Apr 10, 2007 11:13:00 GMT -5
If the President needed to avoid criticism in this spot and knew the attack was coming, why was he in public at all? Why not be conveniently hidden within AF1 in the air somewhere. Back to the conversation in general, why in the world would the US have done this to itself? To attack Afghanistan to provide a smokescreen for a battle in Iraq? And why attack Iraq? For oil? Oil that goes on the world market and is bought at the same price regardless of where it comes from? Revenge for the assasination attempt on Bush41? Wouldn't there have been easier and less politically damaging ways to do that? None of the conspiracy theories make sense. Where are the people or the planes for that matter that hit the Pennsylvania field and the Pentagon? Why attack the Pentagon, why not some civilian location in Washington? Just smile and nod and agree the the Jews, the illegals and GWB conspired to blow up New York and SLOWLY back away. Also, it might keep "THEM" calm is you allude to the fact that the Earth is flat & the governments of the world are conspiring to keep people from finding out. The government is watching us, they have those cameras in space watching everything we do, and they have all of our phones tapped. and I know I saw a black helicopter circling my house. Its all a conspiracy to take over our minds, and its not the Jews and the illegals, its the aliens who crashed here and are based in area 51. They want our water and they want our minds. The governments of the world are working closely with aliens from Vega to accomplish their mission. And the world is not round, its slightly oval, now that is fact.I dont believe in conspiracies, I just believe in the power of money, the president himself said that money trumps peace. I look at the insider trading that went on before the planes hit. And the fact that when the attacks happened that there were trucks in the underground tunnels heading away from the towers full of Gold from the vaults. That's the only angle that creates any doubt in my mind.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 10, 2007 11:22:08 GMT -5
;D I got a tin foil hat that will save you from the mind rays. Seriously, on that note. I have a distant cousin who has tin foil on all of the windows on his house and his car had a cardboard box. He has a small gap so that he csee to drive. He also wraps his body in glad wrap under his clothes so that the aliens will not abduct him again...He was abducted from a mountaintop in Fyffee about 30 years ago (I think it was just some seriously strong drugs, but his mother....well....)
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 12:34:10 GMT -5
Alex Jones is a stark raving idiot. He's no better than the folks who, back in the Clinton years, said that Clinton was running drugs from a small airport outside Little Rock and was ordering Mafia-style "hits" on his detractors. I know for a fact that he wasn't ordering hits because I'm still alive. Jones is also a coward. He's refused to debate those who disagree with him on many more than one occasion. I'd say to Jones what I say to the global warming hysterics and the Darwiniacs: if the case for your point of view is so good, why not debate it and expose the 'skeptics' as the ignoramuses you think they are? As for WTC 7, replace the building with a 47 story tall, four legged stool. Remove one of the legs. Does the stool still stand? Of course not...especially considering how top-heavy the building was by design and made more so by the removal of much of it's supporting structure due to the debris field from WTC 1 and 2. WTC 7 is not like a four legged stool. Get over it. You can try to rationalize it's highly suspicious collapse, but if 100 people off of the street watched it fall they would agree with the truthers because they are not trying to defend some administration. I have seen numerous videos of WTC 7 and it had around two small isolated pockets of fire. It was not a balzing inferno. It did have structural damage. But you pepole must believe that Silverstein is some type of "conspiracy theorist" because he stated it was "pulled". You disagree with the owner of WTC 7 about it's collapse. I believe if everyone in the goverment admitted it was pulled that would take away from some hysteria. Alot of the conspiracy theories exist because the gov't refuses to release pentagon videos, show real photographs at Shanksville and a congressman from New York stated that the way ground zero was not processed and the metal not being examined for residue of explosives would in and of itself cause conspiracy theories to increase. So don't blame some decent people for asking questions blame some of the boneheads in the government for being corrupt and carless with the largest crime scene in america's history. You guys just display your emotional reactions by acting like we have not asked decent questions. Do you believe everything the major media tells you ? what about the 9-11 comission report?
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syme
Cog in Training
Posts: 52
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Post by syme on Apr 10, 2007 12:42:56 GMT -5
I think the problem with this topic is that it is argued from an all or nothing perspective. In other words, everything on 9/11 occured either by the Jihadists or everything on 9/11 occured by the American government. The real possibility is that it is a portion of both. That is the only way that the truth can be determined fully in my opinion.
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Post by billt on Apr 10, 2007 12:50:31 GMT -5
syme's post is WHY i took the NARROW approach about the capability of the USAF....it does NOT take an hour and 22 minutes to intercept a jet that could be a "threat", that is FACT.
also the government's claim that payne stewarts jet was the ONLY intercept in the years before 2001 is TOTAL BS.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 10, 2007 13:01:05 GMT -5
bill, the planes WERE kept on visual. As someone (W.O.M.I. maybe) said in an earlier post, what would you have them do? Shoot down a plane that they had no way of knowing was a threat? They DID NOT know the planes were hyjacked until the twins were sturck. ONE plane could have been a fluke, or a malfunction, but TWO was a threat. I saw an interview with the two pilots who tracked the second plane. There was miscommunications between two seperate ATC towers. It happens in volitale situations. It's called HUMAN ERROR. Surely your eigth grade science teacher told you about HUMAN ERROR.
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Post by W.O.M.I on Apr 10, 2007 14:28:35 GMT -5
solomon-
The US government did NOT plan and carry out the 9/11 attacks.
Get over THAT.
No, my stool analogy isn't perfect, but the underlying principal is the same.
If you remove enough of the load-bearing structure, the structure WILL fall. WTC 7 was hit by the energy equivlent of a volcanic explosion. The fall of the towers was recorded on seismographs!
Conspiracy theories exist because some people have WAY too much time on their hands and/or they prefer to think the worst of our government.
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 17:29:17 GMT -5
solomon- The US government did NOT plan and carry out the 9/11 attacks. Get over THAT. No, my stool analogy isn't perfect, but the underlying principal is the same. If you remove enough of the load-bearing structure, the structure WILL fall. WTC 7 was hit by the energy equivlent of a volcanic explosion. The fall of the towers was recorded on seismographs! Conspiracy theories exist because some people have WAY too much time on their hands and/or they prefer to think the worst of our government. Surly you have heard about the declassified operation North woods. Members of the govt planned to commit acts of terror and blame it on the Cubans in order to get the American people behind a war with Cuba. www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf I'm afraid another form of North woods took place on 9-11. So far who has profited from 9-11? Who has stood to gain? Was it the rag heads? It seems like the only ones who had anything to gain are those who wanted to totally change our country into some type of paranoid big brother police state. The terrorists supposedly hate us because of our "freedoms". I have never been nearly taxed to death by terrorists, only by my govt. Foreigners did not pass eminent domain laws to take my property, the federal govt did. The foreigners never wire tapped my phone, internet, committed sneak and peek warrantless seizures or arrests while professing to lead a "free country", only our govt has. Terrorists never claimed they were in the pursuit of terrorists doing strip searches in airports while the borders are wide open only the federal government has. The federal government claimed that the patriot act and homeland security would "give us more liberty" but I was on the subway system in Atlanta, Ga and have traveled clear across the other side of the subway system when I saw that all persons, bags and other items were subject to search and seizure, no firearms allowed (it was a federal gun crime punishable by federal prison) I had a Glock 9mm and thought I had the right to keep and bear arms, but my federal government came through for me again and threatened even more of my liberty. Now the assault weapon ban is back in congress and will probably be passed again except this time they will want it to be permanent and it will include even more firearms in it even though the previous ban did not deter violent crime. Our government pissed and moaned about Saddam killing 200,000 or so people a few years ago with WMD's and he "has them again"as an excuse to invade another country while America has been killing babies on the average of 1,000,000 per year for the past forty years. We can't even own property in this country. If you don't pay the property "tax" on the land you have payed off every year the government will kill you if they have to in order to get their $$$ or your/their land. Yes I think the worst about this nation sometimes. My freedom is the last concern that many of the high-ups in this government has. I would not doubt very hard that there are some sell out traitors in our government helped to commit 9-11 in order to start a war for oil, war profits, pass "terror laws", and other things that I can't remember at this time. I know how crazy it sounds to suspect my own government of murder to the average Joe but at times I wish I would have just stuck my head in the sand a long time ago so I can be deceived and enjoy life a little more but I screwed up and looked into somethings that caught my attention and found out too much. I love my Savior and what is left of my country. I don't wear tin foil hats and place tin foil over every window in my house. I am a realist when it comes to the depravity of mankind. Every sinful deed that you can imagine has been committed by a government some time in history. According to the Bible the future isn't looking too bright until Jesus comes back and reigns on earth and eternity begins. Until then I will not trust my government no further than I can throw it. I will put up with its crap peacefully (pay ridiculous taxes, minor persecution and other pesty things) until they cross my lines in the sand. My lines are my family, friends, and guns. Lord willing I will fight if I have enough courage and will defend my family until I'm dead. I'm saved so death just means I get to go to heaven. I don't have too much time, I don't have enough time. I would love to fight tyranny more than what little I do. Whatever you do don't research 9-11 by the numerous books and documentaries unless you want your bubble to burst. Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 17:39:20 GMT -5
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 10, 2007 17:59:50 GMT -5
Solomon...
universalseed.org is not very forthcoming on their web site as to who they are, or what is their mission...
oh...i know...their mission is truth,,,but whose isn't...
the one or two videos I was able to get to (didn't try all) had many "disclaimers" regarding the content...
I don't mean this as a jab, but from what I could see, the site's value is more in entertainment than in information...
That's not to say that there isn't some substance there, but it is definitely a case of "caveat emptor" -- would you agree??
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 18:43:47 GMT -5
In reference to Clinton selling dope. I would not doubt Clinton selling, smoking, snorting, borrowing,stealing or ingesting dope at all. His policies would go hand in hand with it. The man entertained the idea of post birth abortion for crying out loud! Why would it be outrageous to believe he would have someone killed? Grow a brain and start distrusting human nature. Especially do not trust million dollar men in control of one of the most powerful countries in the world.
I don't wear tinfoil hats but it sounds like some other people aren't far from getting one fit for their useless heads.
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 18:50:47 GMT -5
Solomon... universalseed.org is not very forthcoming on their web site as to who they are, or what is their mission... oh...i know...their mission is truth,,,but whose isn't... the one or two videos I was able to get to (didn't try all) had many "disclaimers" regarding the content... I don't mean this as a jab, but from what I could see, the site's value is more in entertainment than in information... That's not to say that there isn't some substance there, but it is definitely a case of "caveat emptor" -- would you agree?? "caveat emptor"? Define that for me por favor. I found the site to be more informative. Some of the videos may be entertaining but I would consider it a great resource for watching the videos for free. The site contains a great wealth of information not covered by any of the controlled media. Me personally, I like it.
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 19:04:29 GMT -5
Solomon... universalseed.org is not very forthcoming on their web site as to who they are, or what is their mission... oh...i know...their mission is truth,,,but whose isn't... the one or two videos I was able to get to (didn't try all) had many "disclaimers" regarding the content... I don't mean this as a jab, but from what I could see, the site's value is more in entertainment than in information... That's not to say that there isn't some substance there, but it is definitely a case of "caveat emptor" -- would you agree?? Just watch some of the stuff and see what you think. It will probably take a week or so but it'll be worth it. Remember to look at the message and not spend too much time on the messenger. Look at the information they present then go back and see. If they are boneheads, weirdos or something else don't count everything they say as a lie because a broke clock is right twice a day. You can surly learn a few things on that site. Me personally www.infowars.com/ is one of my favorites. I don't agree with everything he believes but he has did his homework on alot of things. I bought numerous Alex Jones films over the years and love them. The main source of truth though is the Bible. All of this government corruption stuff takes second place to it.
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Post by solomon on Apr 10, 2007 19:16:55 GMT -5
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Post by W.O.M.I on Apr 10, 2007 19:33:07 GMT -5
solomon-
I'm sorry man, but you're adding one and one and getting three.
I agree with your statements that the federal government as intruded, infringed, restricted, eliminated- whatever- many of our freedoms over the years.
The problem is, such intrusions have occurred pretty much throughout our history (well, around 1825 onward) and under Administrations of all parties and all along the ideological spectrum within those parties.
The only way that one could arrive at the conclusion you have- at least so far as I can see- is to think that the formation of the United States and everything we've done or not done pretty much since the founding is all part of a grand conspiracy and that bitter political opponents- Taft and TR, for example- were putting on a fascade of disagreement to fool us while they were willingly participating in back-room deals with some unknow all-powerful extra-governmental entity or agency.
In a more modern context, you've got to believe that George W. Bush and John Kerry/Al Gore really are all "in on it" despite the bitter political campaign that did much to damage the US psyche.
It just don't add up.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 12, 2007 0:26:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but the big question again is why?
If you're going to say that the US powers at be are trying to start a police state then they aren't doing a very good job of it. It's still about the easiest thing in the world to walk into this country....especially in Canada (think about that). There are not cameras on every street corner like in London and we don't even have a National ID card or mandatory passport. I know there have been some bills on such things, but no large support has been found for that stuff on either side of the aisle.
That and how do you explain Al Qaeda? Don't they exist at all? Haven't they been spearheading a movement against our nation and the entire West for many years and even well before 9/11? Again, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq? What purpose would it serve that we do those things if there is no threat at all? Clinton never seemed to think there was much of a threat and treated each terrorist act as a simple crime. Why not use terrorism as an excuse to put up an all out police state if you're going to do it at all.
Not to mention, FDR and Lincoln did a better job or forming a police state than Bush has done.
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syme
Cog in Training
Posts: 52
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Post by syme on Apr 12, 2007 0:38:17 GMT -5
"The study's premise is that historically the only means by which a government has ever been able to "secure the subordination of citizens to the state" is war. Only war has been able to provide the external threat without which no government can accumulate power. War is used to make the masses put up with all kinds of privation, taxation, and controls without complaint. No amount of sacrifice in the name of victory is rejected. Resistance is viewed as treason." - G. Edward Griffin
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Post by brandon on Apr 12, 2007 0:42:48 GMT -5
"The study's premise is that historically the only means by which a government has ever been able to "secure the subordination of citizens to the state" is war. Only war has been able to provide the external threat without which no government can accumulate power. War is used to make the masses put up with all kinds of privation, taxation, and controls without complaint. No amount of sacrifice in the name of victory is rejected. Resistance is viewed as treason." - G. Edward Griffin That's a good quote. It's very true.
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Post by Twister on Apr 12, 2007 0:48:06 GMT -5
re: Tusker...
"Not to mention, FDR and Lincoln did a better job or forming a police state than Bush has done. " They also did a better job of winning a war than Bush has done.
Maybe it isn't because the administration hasn't been trying to get the police state set up, but rather their general ineptitude has saved us so far...
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