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Post by kevin on May 19, 2007 11:48:22 GMT -5
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 19, 2007 15:49:47 GMT -5
Several things...
First, isn't it rather interesting that the MSM continues to tell us that we have no allies in the War on Terror besides Britain and that Blair was wrong to support us?
Secondly, I think the reason that the majority of Israelis want us- the US- to conduct the strikes is that they aren't convinced that their own forces, as commanded by Olmert, are capable of pulling it off successfully. Olmert botched the war with the Hezbos last summer and that failure- the first 'war' the Israelis have lost against Arab groups- is still fresh in their minds.
Thirdly, I wish the poll had taken the next step and asked if Israelis thought good or ill of a US-imposed Israeli-Palestinian agreement and if the political party of the US President would affect their view.
The reason I put it that way is I have never understood why a majority of American Jews vote Democrat when Democrats are not reciprocally supportive of Israel. It has been theorized that America's Jews are far more secular and far less devout than Israeli Jews and this lack of religious orthodoxy makes them identify with Democrats, who typically similarly lack religious fervor, more closely. I think there is no doubt at all that, the more secular you are in your worldview, the more likely you are to be a self-identified Democrat.
Anyways...interesting poll results to say the least.
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Post by solinvictus on May 19, 2007 16:14:19 GMT -5
They are Jews. Jews hate Muslims nearly as much as Muslims hate Jews. That headline is about like one proclaiming "100% of Americans Would Love to Win the Powerball Lottery".
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 19, 2007 16:27:18 GMT -5
Is it a matter of Jews hating Muslims or Jews hating the violence constantlydirected at them by Muslims?
I tend to agree with Benjamin Netanyahu, who said that 'If the Palestinians disarm, there will be no war; if the Jews disarm, there will be no Israel.'
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Post by kevin on May 20, 2007 13:38:40 GMT -5
When I first read the article, I got a picture in my mind of the kid who always ran his mouth because he knew he had a big brother. In other words, this comes off as Israel wanting big brother - USA - to do the dirty work while they sit back and cheer. I can't say it is like that but it sure looks that way.
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 20, 2007 15:42:29 GMT -5
kevin-
A reasonable assessment and one that has more than a grain of truth to it.
There's no doubt, at least in my mind, that there are two principal reasons why Israel still exists:
1) they have nukes whether they want to admit it or not
2) the friendship and support of the United States
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Post by fragerella on May 21, 2007 14:40:29 GMT -5
When I first read the article, I got a picture in my mind of the kid who always ran his mouth because he knew he had a big brother. In other words, this comes off as Israel wanting big brother - USA - to do the dirty work while they sit back and cheer. I can't say it is like that but it sure looks that way. Have you never heard the argument that since the Jews are God's chosen people, and since this country was founded on Judeo-Christian Values™, then we have a divine mandate to protect Israel at all costs?
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Post by kevin on May 21, 2007 17:56:15 GMT -5
When I first read the article, I got a picture in my mind of the kid who always ran his mouth because he knew he had a big brother. In other words, this comes off as Israel wanting big brother - USA - to do the dirty work while they sit back and cheer. I can't say it is like that but it sure looks that way. Have you never heard the argument that since the Jews are God's chosen people, and since this country was founded on Judeo-Christian Values™, then we have a divine mandate to protect Israel at all costs? No doubt, been hearing it for years. Not Biblically mandated ("thou shalt protect the nation of Israel") so why do we insist? I'll have to go back and read my Old Testament, but I'm having trouble recalling a time when Israel needed help from another nation or people to defeat their enemies. I'm not saying we can't enter into negotiations and mediation, but who said we need to fight their wars for them? I think this will be my new study for the week.
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 21, 2007 18:39:49 GMT -5
Using Biblical passages to justify our backing Israel would be a clear violation of the separation of Church and State.
We don't want to get those Constitutionalists out there riled up.
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Post by lawman on May 21, 2007 18:51:24 GMT -5
Using Biblical passages to justify our backing Israel would be a clear violation of the separation of Church and State. We don't want to get those Constitutionalists out there riled up. I know you KNOW this....perhaps you're 'jest' jesting? I just e-mailed this to a Moron newspaper guy who wrote an ignorant article! The founders NEVER INCLUDED THIS 'LIE-BERAL 'talking point' in the Constitution! It's NOT in there! --- ''Separation of Church and State'' is not anywhere in the Constitution... and is contrary to what the founders meant!
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 21, 2007 18:59:47 GMT -5
law-
Tongue was planted firmly in cheek on this one.
Do you happen to remember a discussion on one of these boards where a poster tried to say that our support of Israel was a violation of the Separation nonesense and I countered that, more accurately, our NOT supporing Israel was a violation of the First Amendment?
I was kinda going down that path again....
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Post by lawman on May 21, 2007 19:04:43 GMT -5
law- Tongue was planted firmly in cheek on this one. Do you happen to remember a discussion on one of these boards where a poster tried to say that our support of Israel was a violation of the Separation nonesense and I countered that, more accurately, our NOT supporing Israel was a violation of the First Amendment? I was kinda going down that path again.... I do remember.....but you can be sooooo convincing with your 'tongue'..... I wasn't taking any chances!?
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Post by phinehas on May 21, 2007 21:00:14 GMT -5
Rom 11:1-15
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead KJV
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Post by phinehas on May 21, 2007 21:02:46 GMT -5
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches .
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches . But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches , be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: KJV
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Post by kevin on May 21, 2007 21:13:48 GMT -5
I appreciate the verses phinehas, and I've looked them over. On first blush, I don't see where Christians have a mandate from God to take up any battles for Israel. There is language of preservation, but it appears to come from God, not from those who have placed their trust in the Son. I will use these as a starting point for why Christians (not the US) should fight battles for the Jews.
Israel is not the same country we saw in the OT. Well, perhaps they are the representation of the Jews about to undergo bondage to another people, but they are certainly not the Jews who served God and gave Him glory.
Since this is not the Religion forum, I will post any findings there. Again, thanks for starting points.
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Post by fragerella on May 22, 2007 9:55:37 GMT -5
law- Tongue was planted firmly in cheek on this one. Do you happen to remember a discussion on one of these boards where a poster tried to say that our support of Israel was a violation of the Separation nonesense and I countered that, more accurately, our NOT supporing Israel was a violation of the First Amendment? I was kinda going down that path again.... And for the record, I'd like to say that the aforementioned poster wasn't me!
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