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Post by phinehas on Mar 27, 2007 11:31:13 GMT -5
My only point is there is no good reason to believe.
A reason to believe there is a God is that I have not seen anything materialize from nothing. Houses are built by people. A car is built by people. A nest is built by birds, etc., etc....nothing comes into existence without a cause. The earth and the universe are the result of a cause and so far, the paradigm of reality proves that things that are created have a creator.
If you don't believe I have any "real ammo," you're unfamiliar with the debate.
I have not seen any "real ammo" from you personally which is distinct from the debate as a whole.
"I've read dozens, if not hundreds of books on this subject and am not familiar with a single argument for theism that stand up to scrutiny. In America today It usually comes down to special pleading."
What were you saying about Christians not being used to having to defend their beliefs? LOL.
"For instance, did you even consider that the Milk Miracle was real? Even for a split second? Why not?"
No. It is not consistent with the character of God, nor is bleeding from the eyes statues or any other form of "miracles" that deal with inanimate objects in this manner.
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 27, 2007 11:32:05 GMT -5
Please have some respect. This man gave his life for our country. You have a great deal of nerve...you are the one who is paying great DISrespect to this soldier...by exploiting his death to advocate your religion....
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Post by blondie on Mar 27, 2007 12:09:03 GMT -5
My only point is there is no good reason to believe.A reason to believe there is a God is that I have not seen anything materialize from nothing. Houses are built by people. A car is built by people. A nest is built by birds, etc., etc....nothing comes into existence without a cause. The earth and the universe are the result of a cause and so far, the paradigm of reality proves that things that are created have a creator. If you don't believe I have any "real ammo," you're unfamiliar with the debate.I have not seen any "real ammo" from you personally which is distinct from the debate as a whole. "I've read dozens, if not hundreds of books on this subject and am not familiar with a single argument for theism that stand up to scrutiny. In America today It usually comes down to special pleading." What were you saying about Christians not being used to having to defend their beliefs? LOL. "For instance, did you even consider that the Milk Miracle was real? Even for a split second? Why not?"No. It is not consistent with the character of God, nor is bleeding from the eyes statues or any other form of "miracles" that deal with inanimate objects in this manner. My only point is there is no good reason to believe.A reason to believe there is a God is that I have not seen anything materialize from nothing. Houses are built by people. A car is built by people. A nest is built by birds, etc., etc....nothing comes into existence without a cause. The earth and the universe are the result of a cause and so far, the paradigm of reality proves that things that are created have a creator. If you don't believe I have any "real ammo," you're unfamiliar with the debate.I have not seen any "real ammo" from you personally which is distinct from the debate as a whole. "I've read dozens, if not hundreds of books on this subject and am not familiar with a single argument for theism that stand up to scrutiny. In America today It usually comes down to special pleading." What were you saying about Christians not being used to having to defend their beliefs? LOL. "For instance, did you even consider that the Milk Miracle was real? Even for a split second? Why not?"No. It is not consistent with the character of God, nor is bleeding from the eyes statues or any other form of "miracles" that deal with inanimate objects in this manner. You have a different understanding of the character of god than someone who believes in Ganesha. Also the bleeding statues that some Catholics believe in. These discrepancies are more Atheist ammo. They are mutually exclusive. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. This is why I brought up special pleading. So many Christians I talk to just can't get beyond it. "nothing comes into existence without a cause"This is the Cosmological argument. Here's the reply: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument#Counterarguments_and_objections
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Post by phinehas on Mar 27, 2007 12:31:17 GMT -5
blondie -
You say I am using special pleading. Find me anywhere in the Bible or in the Hindu works were statues bleeding or drinking is mentioned. I am not using special pleading because I am not showing an exception.
You can read further down to the 'Criticisms of counterarguments' section to get my rebuttal. LOL.
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Post by blondie on Mar 27, 2007 14:01:30 GMT -5
blondie - You say I am using special pleading. Find me anywhere in the Bible or in the Hindu works were statues bleeding or drinking is mentioned. I am not using special pleading because I am not showing an exception. You can read further down to the 'Criticisms of counterarguments' section to get my rebuttal. LOL. You said, "nothing comes into existence without a cause." The easiest rebuttal is that the uncaused cause makes the first statement false. The rebuttal to the rebuttal in Wikipedia says "everything natural is caused." So it looks like an opening is made by reformulating the false statement. Now realize I don't believe the Cosmological argument. From what I understand Quantum physics tells us things do pop into existence with no cause. But I believe you're saying that Jesus is this uncaused cause. But you believe he came into existence without a cause. So your original premise is wrong. Actually, if you continue down the Wikipedia page you find the scientific position. It says "there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion."
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Post by blondie on Mar 27, 2007 14:05:54 GMT -5
blondie - You say I am using special pleading. Find me anywhere in the Bible or in the Hindu works were statues bleeding or drinking is mentioned. I am not using special pleading because I am not showing an exception. When I say special pleading I believe you are applying a different standard to a Hindu miracle than you would to a Christian one. I'm applying the same standard to both. I guess you're applying the Christian standard to both. But I mean I apply one standard to all supernatural claims.
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Post by phinehas on Mar 27, 2007 15:15:11 GMT -5
"The easiest rebuttal is that the uncaused cause makes the first statement false."Your logical fallacy is in thinking that God must be a cause. If God was always in existence then he never came into existence. "Quantum physics tells us things do pop into existence with no cause."www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html"But I believe you're saying that Jesus is this uncaused cause. But you believe he came into existence without a cause. So your original premise is wrong."Nope, I didn't say he came into existence. The Bible states that God is eternal, therefore he always existed and didn't come into existence. "Actually, if you continue down the Wikipedia page you find the scientific position. It says "there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion."I am not talking about Newtonian physics. "When I say special pleading I believe you are applying a different standard to a Hindu miracle than you would to a Christian one."No I didn't. I asked you to find an example in either of the religions holy books. Same standard.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Mar 28, 2007 0:22:59 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, CS Lewis stated that he held tightly to his atheist beliefs while in a foxhole in WWI. He said he could not understand how such violence could come about in a world created by a good God.
Of course, many years later he became a Christian.
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Post by deovindice on Mar 28, 2007 4:25:11 GMT -5
"Here's the best documented miracle of all times. Makes Jesus look like a chump: http://www.milkmiracle.com" You must be joking. Let's see, bringing people back from the dead, healing people that couldn't walk or see from birth versus a statue "drinking" milk. Even if the statutes were drinking the milk, minus human intervention, such as a hole in the statue with a slight vacuum, etc, how is that trumping what Jesus did? You like to get absurd with your attack on Christianity don't you? Oh, I wouldn't call it documented since nobody was allowed to examine the statues. Best documented. If you're going to believe in the supernatural this is a good place to start. There are plenty of ancient tales of the supernatural. None caught on video tape. I don't find this absurd at all, but it does lead to a point. Many religious arguments reveal a blatant cultural bias. Ask yourself, why do you dismiss the milk miracle out of hand, (like I do) yet believe the extraordinary claims of Christianity (unlike me)? I believe this is a clear example of special pleading. Milk Miracle? Ishtar? Zeus? Pascal wagered, farted twice, danced naked around a fire howling special pleadings to Rover the moon god and ...................? All of this is just so much pseudo-philosophical babble, and while I applaud your seemingly extensive knowledge of whatever discipline this is, the fact remains that your original post rested on using this soldier's death to further your agenda/cause/belief system/whatever. It's at best intellectually dishonest, and very disrespectful.
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Post by zoomixer on Mar 28, 2007 8:40:31 GMT -5
Blondie, Did it ever occur to you that if there was no divine being then there is absolutely no point to life? I don't know what you believe about how this universe started but I think I can safely assume that you would adhere to some form of start that does not include the intervention of a divine being. That being the case you are more than likely depending on an idea that involves a random collection of particles/molecules/etc. coming together somewhere/somehow and life emerging from that. If I'm incorrect in thinking what you believe then just correct me. So, if you believe something along those lines would it be safe to assume that the ideas of "right" and "wrong" are simply terms man uses to help keep society in order but are otherwise meaningless? Is that what you believe?
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 9:07:58 GMT -5
Blondie, Did it ever occur to you that if there was no divine being then there is absolutely no point to life? I don't know what you believe about how this universe started but I think I can safely assume that you would adhere to some form of start that does not include the intervention of a divine being. That being the case you are more than likely depending on an idea that involves a random collection of particles/molecules/etc. coming together somewhere/somehow and life emerging from that. If I'm incorrect in thinking what you believe then just correct me. So, if you believe something along those lines would it be safe to assume that the ideas of "right" and "wrong" are simply terms man uses to help keep society in order but are otherwise meaningless? Is that what you believe? Thats going to be a tough question to ask when he goes on about people persecuting and insulting each other. If we are just random beings brought about by chance with no creator and no meaning then there is no right or wrong and no reason to debate. Life would be a free for all with no consequences. The fact that we "care" shows that there is a higher calling.
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Post by blondie on Mar 28, 2007 9:18:41 GMT -5
Blondie, Did it ever occur to you that if there was no divine being then there is absolutely no point to life? No that never occurred to me. How does the existence of a divine being necessitate a "point to life"? would it be safe to assume that the ideas of "right" and "wrong" are simply terms man uses to help keep society in order but are otherwise meaningless? Is that what you believe? Yes. The proof of this is that these ideas are not universal. They change from society to society.
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Post by dixiepixie on Mar 28, 2007 9:19:21 GMT -5
I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and NOT believe in God.
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 9:21:21 GMT -5
Blondie, Did it ever occur to you that if there was no divine being then there is absolutely no point to life? No that never occurred to me. How does the existence of a divine being necessitate a "point to life"? would it be safe to assume that the ideas of "right" and "wrong" are simply terms man uses to help keep society in order but are otherwise meaningless? Is that what you believe? Yes. The proof of this is that these ideas are not universal. They change from society to society. I guess you believe in aliens from other planets too.
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Post by blondie on Mar 28, 2007 9:24:05 GMT -5
I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and NOT believe in God. I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and believe in God.
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 9:32:37 GMT -5
I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and NOT believe in God. I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and believe in God. Dude, now your just becoming the kid in the classroom who no one wants to sit by. You have to say someting negative to everyones post.
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 9:35:43 GMT -5
We all know you don't believe in God so quit trying to start a argument and use some of your overwhelming scientific knowledge to add something constructive to these posts instead of constantly repeating yourself.
Its getting old.............you are lonely aren't you.
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Post by blondie on Mar 28, 2007 9:50:10 GMT -5
espy,
Besides your incredible bigoted remarks about homosexuals, you should be genuinely ashamed of this:
"Catholics don't believe that we as individuals can pray for forgiveness for our sins in Jesus name, all of our sins should go through the priest whom is called father. Jesus is our heavenly father and he died on the cross for our sins and when we pray for forgiveness we pray to him, our father. Not to some pedophile who tries to take Jesus' authority from him."
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Post by zoomixer on Mar 28, 2007 10:10:22 GMT -5
No that never occurred to me. How does the existence of a divine being necessitate a "point to life"? Glad you asked! Because if the existence of the life on this planet is due to chance then what value is there in it's existence. It just happened. No rhyme, no reason. If a divine being created this universe the there exist the possibility that it did so for a reason and has a plan for it's existence. If there is no "right" or "wrong" then why have you said before that you are against pedophilia? Rape? Terrorism? Why is it "wrong" to kill innocent children in war? Because someone is forcing their will on someone else? How is that a problem? You have just said that "Right" and "Wrong" are merely ideas man has created to try to keep order but.....why should there be order? Per your omission, you should have no problem with the acts of Hitler and others like him. Is that how you feel? Are you brave enough to make such a statement? Do you have the guts to admit that you don't condemn people who do such things?
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 10:13:03 GMT -5
espy, Besides your incredible bigoted remarks about homosexuals, you should be genuinely ashamed of this: "Catholics don't believe that we as individuals can pray for forgiveness for our sins in Jesus name, all of our sins should go through the priest whom is called father. Jesus is our heavenly father and he died on the cross for our sins and when we pray for forgiveness we pray to him, our father. Not to some pedophile who tries to take Jesus' authority from him." I haven't made any bigoted remarks about homosexuals let alone incredibly bigoted, maybe you should look up the definition of bigot I only stated that it is homosexuals who try to bash Christians, that's not a bigoted statement. and what exactly would I be ashamed about with the other statement I made, its true You just don't have anything to say do you?
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Post by lawman on Mar 28, 2007 10:15:32 GMT -5
Blondie,
Just pretend! There is really God Almighty, Creater of Heaven and Earth and you! Would you care to experience a REAL communication with HIM?
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 10:19:24 GMT -5
This is like trying to talk to a recording, he has no real thoughts or feelings only preprogramed responces.
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 10:21:39 GMT -5
Blondie, Just pretend! There is really God Almighty, Creater of Heaven and Earth and you! Would you care to experience a REAL communication with HIM?He will....then its too late to take back all of the denial.
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Post by lawmanguest on Mar 28, 2007 10:23:51 GMT -5
This is like trying to talk to a recording, he has no real thoughts or feelings only preprogramed responces. Now you're acting like the devil......CAREFUL!
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 10:24:51 GMT -5
One more thing about myself, I dont agree with the lifestyle but I have close friends who call themselves gay, we obviously have had conversations about it but we have left it at the fact that it is between them and God.
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 10:25:50 GMT -5
na, the devil would be on his side.
I still love the guy and so does Jesus but you have to admit these same comments over and over are getting pretty old.
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Post by lawman on Mar 28, 2007 10:30:47 GMT -5
na, the devil would be on his side. I still love the guy and so does Jesus but you have to admit these same comments over and over are getting pretty old. That's why you can only say what God leads you to say.....and go on!
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Post by espy on Mar 28, 2007 10:41:15 GMT -5
na, the devil would be on his side. I still love the guy and so does Jesus but you have to admit these same comments over and over are getting pretty old. That's why you can only say what God leads you to say.....and go on! your right...sorry....its very easy to get cought up in the moment.
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Post by dixiepixie on Mar 28, 2007 11:00:37 GMT -5
I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and NOT believe in God. I still can't see how ANYONE can have a child, look at that child, watch it grow and thrive, and believe in God. I have carried three children. They all grew and thrived and lived for 40 weeks, just below my heart. I felt the miracle of their flutters, and kicks. I felt their hicups. I heard their first cries. I fed them with milk from my body. There is no doubt in my mind that God is real. I have had my moments of doubt in the past, but having my children dispelled them all.
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 28, 2007 11:40:00 GMT -5
Blondie...
of what is a child "innocent"...and when do they become "guilty"? and "guilty" of what???
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