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Job
May 24, 2007 14:06:20 GMT -5
Post by killer on May 24, 2007 14:06:20 GMT -5
Why did God allow Satan to cause so much destruction in Job's life? God gives Satan permission to all but destroy Job. Why?
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Job
May 24, 2007 14:15:53 GMT -5
Post by zoomixer on May 24, 2007 14:15:53 GMT -5
The quick and simple answer is to glorify Himself.
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Job
May 24, 2007 14:19:47 GMT -5
Post by killer on May 24, 2007 14:19:47 GMT -5
Thanks. But I think you are wrong.
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Job
May 24, 2007 15:16:34 GMT -5
Post by zoomixer on May 24, 2007 15:16:34 GMT -5
Oh. You didn't say that you only wanted an answer that would agree with what you think.
Why do you think my answer is wrong?
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Job
May 24, 2007 16:18:49 GMT -5
Post by killer on May 24, 2007 16:18:49 GMT -5
I think your answer is wrong because I do not believe God seeks to glorify Himself.
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Job
May 24, 2007 17:20:20 GMT -5
Post by zoomixer on May 24, 2007 17:20:20 GMT -5
Ok. And what do you think He seeks?
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Job
May 24, 2007 22:05:11 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 24, 2007 22:05:11 GMT -5
From what I understand Job was written to explain a transition in Jewish theology.
Before Job the idea was a covenant. A contract with YHWH. I give yo my foreskin, you watch my back.
Eventually people realized that bad things happened to good pius folk and the bad guys seemed to keep coming out on top.
So the message of Job is that YHWH can do whatever he wants and his flock just has to deal with it.
Also the beginning and end are usually thought to be written by a different author than whoever wrote the "meat" of the story.
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Job
May 24, 2007 22:42:21 GMT -5
Post by kevin on May 24, 2007 22:42:21 GMT -5
And here I thought you were looking for a job. Or offering one!
Job is one of the oddest books in the Bible. Right up there with Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) and Hosea. If you're ready to really venture out there, read Hosea. Most Christians won't touch Hosea with a 20 foot pole.
Zoomixer is somewhat correct in his "quick and simple" answer. But that particular answer makes God look like a selfish God looking for attention. Not so.
Instead, God allowed Satan to test Job to give those after him an example of how they can find strength in true times of trials and tribulation. And, whether some want to admit it or not, it also shows that "friends" often mean well but that they really only interpret things based on their own experiences. Job gave us an example of someone who turned to God and God alone, and did not merely rely on what others told him. It is a lesson in putting faith in God, not just what others think about God.
So the quick answer would be that God was showing that strength through faith in God beats Satan's best attempts any day.
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lawman
Apprentice Cog
Posts: 237
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Job
May 24, 2007 23:04:51 GMT -5
Post by lawman on May 24, 2007 23:04:51 GMT -5
And here I thought you were looking for a job. Or offering one! Job is one of the oddest books in the Bible. Right up there with Song of Solomon (Song of Songs) and Hosea. If you're ready to really venture out there, read Hosea. Most Christians won't touch Hosea with a 20 foot pole. Zoomixer is somewhat correct in his "quick and simple" answer. But that particular answer makes God look like a selfish God looking for attention. Not so. Instead, God allowed Satan to test Job to give those after him an example of how they can find strength in true times of trials and tribulation. And, whether some want to admit it or not, it also shows that "friends" often mean well but that they really only interpret things based on their own experiences. Job gave us an example of someone who turned to God and God alone, and did not merely rely on what others told him. It is a lesson in putting faith in God, not just what others think about God. So the quick answer would be that God was showing that strength through faith in God beats Satan's best attempts any day. And that in spite of the suffering God allows....the lessons, joys and blessings are awesome for the work God is doing in your grief!
But, and...very well summarized!
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lawman
Apprentice Cog
Posts: 237
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Job
May 24, 2007 23:18:43 GMT -5
Post by lawman on May 24, 2007 23:18:43 GMT -5
killer,
Very good choice of a Topic! You are asking profitable and wise questions! Thank you !!
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Job
May 25, 2007 7:08:38 GMT -5
Post by richbrout on May 25, 2007 7:08:38 GMT -5
Sounds like a sick little experiment on JOB.
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Job
May 25, 2007 7:55:49 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 7:55:49 GMT -5
For those that want to understand it....read it. Actually, you would have to read the whole Bible...sorry, but some effort must be taken.
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Job
May 25, 2007 8:19:28 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 8:19:28 GMT -5
For those that want to understand it....read it. Actually, you would have to read the whole Bible...sorry, but some effort must be taken. I read it. I also know that different people get different things out of it. It's just a story. I also know that the beginning and end were written by a different person than whoever wrote the middle. I also know that anyone who thinks Moses wrote it is a moron.
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Job
May 25, 2007 8:27:46 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 8:27:46 GMT -5
I would say that you believe it but don't know it...either way, prove it.
Prove each statement. You made the premises so therefore YOU prove them.
edit: Your second and third sentences are logical fallacies, at least in your implications, which i assume based on previous posts.
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Job
May 25, 2007 8:31:27 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 8:31:27 GMT -5
I would say that you believe it but don't know it...either way, prove it. Prove each statement. You made the premises so therefore YOU prove them. You want me to prove it's a story? What do you think it is, an automobile? I'm just trying to educate you. If you don't want to believe me look it up for yourself.
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Job
May 25, 2007 8:34:30 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 8:34:30 GMT -5
blondie: We know it's a story....just like history books are stories. You think it's a story of fiction where others think it is a story of fact. You PROVE it's fiction.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:04:53 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:04:53 GMT -5
blondie: We know it's a story....just like history books are stories. You think it's a story of fiction where others think it is a story of fact. You PROVE it's fiction. It's got characters that don't exist in it. What's this prove stuff? You kept after me to prove that religioustolerance.org was objective. How could anybody prove that? Even if everybody agreed that Encarta is objective you could never prove it. It would be easy to prove that it's biased. All you have to find is an example. You weren't able to do that or provide an objective source that backed whatever your vague claim about Bible divorce was. By never actually stating a point and demanding I prove negatives or other equally impossible things you just give yourself away. I make clear points and back them up. You should try it sometime.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:13:59 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 9:13:59 GMT -5
blondie...YOU are the one making the statements that need to be proved. I didn't ask you to prove a negative. You made positive assertations.
"It's got characters that don't exist in it." - PROVE IT!
"You kept after me to prove that religioustolerance.org was objective. How could anybody prove that?"
YOU said it was objective, therefore it's up to YOU to prove that. I will no longer ask you to prove if a source is objective if you would stop asking us to do the same when we give a source.
You are the one that made a claim in regards to divorce, not us...you have to prove it.
You have given yourself away, because the very stuff you demand from us is not what you require of yourself.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:30:37 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:30:37 GMT -5
blondie...YOU are the one making the statements that need to be proved. I didn't ask you to prove a negative. You made positive assertations. "It's got characters that don't exist in it." - PROVE IT! It's self evident. Do you want me to prove Athena wasn't born out of Zeus' head too? YOU said it was objective, therefore it's up to YOU to prove that. Do you believe it's possible to prove any source is objective? I don't. Do you believe it's possible to prove a source is biased? I do. All you have to do is provide an example. It's falsifiability. Your inability to find bias is the best proof that it must be objective.
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lawman
Apprentice Cog
Posts: 237
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:30:47 GMT -5
Post by lawman on May 25, 2007 9:30:47 GMT -5
blondie...YOU are the one making the statements that need to be proved. I didn't ask you to prove a negative. You made positive assertations. "It's got characters that don't exist in it." - PROVE IT! "You kept after me to prove that religioustolerance.org was objective. How could anybody prove that?"YOU said it was objective, therefore it's up to YOU to prove that. I will no longer ask you to prove if a source is objective if you would stop asking us to do the same when we give a source. You are the one that made a claim in regards to divorce, not us...you have to prove it. You have given yourself away, because the very stuff you demand from us is not what you require of yourself. All this 'back and forth'...ARGUING --- 'blondie versus the whole 'so-called' Christian forum base of The Attack Machine forum membership, PROVES NOTHING, and demeans the integrity of all involved....from my view-point!Like a Dynamic 'Jewish Christian' told me a good while back....'Don't argue the Bible..... I got the point!
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:35:04 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:35:04 GMT -5
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." 8 And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face." 12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand." So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Then the Lord and Satan and all God's sons ordered pizza and watched the game. Except for Jesus. He had to work.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:35:06 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 9:35:06 GMT -5
"It's self evident." - You would need to prove that.
"Do you believe it's possible to prove any source is objective? I don't."
Then why is that your canned answer for every source used to refute your statements. Stop doing it if that is what you believe. Continuing to say it but never having to abide by it is intellectually dishonest.
You have YET to give a source for your premises...so how am I supposed to pick out a bias in it. YOU are biased because you are an atheist...so if the source is you, then there is the bias.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:36:55 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 9:36:55 GMT -5
"All this 'back and forth'...ARGUING --- 'blondie versus the whole 'so-called' Christian forum base of The Attack Machine forum membership, PROVES NOTHING, and demeans the integrity of all involved....from my view-point!
Like a Dynamic 'Jewish Christian' told me a good while back....'Don't argue the Bible.....I got the point!"
OK, if you don't want to, then don't.
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lawman
Apprentice Cog
Posts: 237
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:38:47 GMT -5
Post by lawman on May 25, 2007 9:38:47 GMT -5
"All this 'back and forth'...ARGUING --- 'blondie versus the whole 'so-called' Christian forum base of The Attack Machine forum membership, PROVES NOTHING, and demeans the integrity of all involved....from my view-point! Like a Dynamic 'Jewish Christian' told me a good while back....'Don't argue the Bible.....I got the point!" OK, if you don't want to, then don't. That's what I thought! -- from you!!
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:39:09 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:39:09 GMT -5
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:43:43 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:43:43 GMT -5
"... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..." —Jeremiah 44:17
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:48:40 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on May 25, 2007 9:48:40 GMT -5
"All this 'back and forth'...ARGUING --- 'blondie versus the whole 'so-called' Christian forum base of The Attack Machine forum membership, PROVES NOTHING, and demeans the integrity of all involved....from my view-point! Like a Dynamic 'Jewish Christian' told me a good while back....'Don't argue the Bible.....I got the point!" OK, if you don't want to, then don't. That's what I thought! -- from you!! Ok, again, if you don't want to debate the bible, then don't. I thought it was a reasonable response. You gave your opinion that we shouldn't, I disagree, therefore nothing else to say.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:49:54 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:49:54 GMT -5
"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." —Jeremiah 7:17–18 A goddess popular with the ancient Israelites. Asherah was a beloved household Goddess of the Hebrews and the Canannites (now known as Palestinians). This type of Asherah is over 4000 years old. She is the Goddess worshipped by King Solomon, and was known as "Qaniyatu Elima" "She Who Gives Birth to the Gods." Most Canannite and Hebrew households had altars dedicated to Asherah, She inspired great devotion. Ashratum, Atharath, Astoreth, Elath, Eliat and "Queen of Heaven are some of Her many names. She is the mother of the Goddess Anath, consort of Yahweh. Asherah is the grandmother of Muslims, Jews and Christians. Many Asherah figures have been found, and many of Her altars have been found in the ruins of ancient kitchens. Her aspects included bringing special blessings to the family, and helping people achieve their goals and dreams.
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:52:28 GMT -5
Post by blondie on May 25, 2007 9:52:28 GMT -5
In conclusion, I am not opposed in theory to the possibility that Asherah was an Israelite goddess during the monarchy. My chief objection to this view is that it has not been demonstrated, given the plausibility of alternative views. By the same token, the case has not been disproved, and I must concede that I may be wrong. It may be only a matter of time before superior evidence attesting to Asherah's cult in monarchic Israel is discovered. www.bibleinterp.com/articles/early_history2.htm
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lawman
Apprentice Cog
Posts: 237
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Job
May 25, 2007 9:56:50 GMT -5
Post by lawman on May 25, 2007 9:56:50 GMT -5
That's what I thought! -- from you!! Ok, again, if you don't want to debate the bible, then don't. I thought it was a reasonable response. You gave your opinion that we shouldn't, I disagree, therefore nothing else to say. Like a Preacher told me once, ''God wants me to 'preach' HIS Word, It's HIS job to perform HIS Word!Some will NEVER 'Hear' HIS Word! He added, ''You can't 'melt it (God's Word) and pour it 'in' them!''
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