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Post by blondie on Apr 27, 2007 19:59:40 GMT -5
Saved by faith (sola fide) and by grace (sola gratia) means Jeffrey Dahmer and Andrea Yeates get to go to Heaven and Gandhi burns in hell.
Sounds like a pretty sick system in the 21st century. Most average Christians (Matt Murphy) don't think too deeply and assume their religion is just instead of cruel. Some (Hank Erwin) work it through and become sick and evil weirdos who think executing Wiccans and gays is a good thing.
If it's 1520 and you've been excommunicated and imagine any kindly oriental is actually a Christian sola fide and sola gratia are good ideas.
Time to move on.
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Post by kevin on Apr 27, 2007 20:56:51 GMT -5
Yes, and we must admit that atheism -- or at least those who do not claim any belief -- has had some really benevolent, loving adherents. Stalin and Mao Tse Tung come to mind. Let's see, under Stalin's leadership, 20 million people were killed. Under Mao's leadership, 40 million (although most were famine). # of DeathsWhat you fail to understand -- and it shows in your listing of Jeffrey Dahmer and Andrea Yeates -- is that there is a difference between proclaiming you have been saved by grace and faith and actually accepting it as such in your life where it is real and true. Why else have there been estimates that 80%+ of people in the US are Christians? I cannot not tell you how many people I've talked to have felt that they were going to Heaven because they "did what the preacher said" or "were good people". In the end, only 2 entities know: the person and God. Hey, when did Hank Erwin say executing gays and Wiccans are a good thing? I can only assume you're referring to the Hurricane Katrina statements. I think you're a perfect example of the following from the intro to a "What If I Stumble" by DC Talk:
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Post by blondie on Apr 28, 2007 8:35:59 GMT -5
Hank's been on the radio for a long time in B'ham. He's made his beliefs very clear but never asked anyone to commit any kind of crime though some of his callers have proposed killing gays and witches. Hank's Christianity is very conservative and "Biblical" in the lines of Fred Phelps. Please familiarize yourself with the standard answers for and against Atheism. Hop down to point #4: atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/AtheismMyths.htm
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Post by kevin on Apr 28, 2007 11:15:40 GMT -5
You've contradicted yourself in posts #1 and #3 Which is it then, Hank or his callers that believe in the above? And your link does not address my statement: Compare that #4 point from your link: Never said that the people where killed in the name of atheism, just that these 2 guys were atheists (or at least did not have any religion) and millions have been killed under their leadership. My point is that those who have no belief in God (or any gods since atheism is disbelief in any god) tend to view that human life is of little value. Since you seem to value links, here's one for you: Not a Threat: The Contributions of Christianity to Western Society. That will get you started, but there are so many other contributions made by those using Christian values as their standard. Now I'd like to see you show us what contributions atheism has provided. No more philosophy, no more "it could if", etc. Real contributions.
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Post by blondie on Apr 28, 2007 12:34:33 GMT -5
My point is that those who have no belief in God (or any gods since atheism is disbelief in any god) tend to view that human life is of little value. I don't know a single Atheist who thinks human life has little value. So that's obviously wrong. (Note to Phinehas. Kevin made a clear point. It is wrong, ignorant and bigoted, but it's a clear point)Your link is not just stupid it's D. James Kennedy stupid. Everyone knows there have been a lot of Christian scientists. Today most of the top scientists are Atheists. Christianity has held back health care and is today. Stem cell research. Christianity supports slavery and the inferiority of women. It was Christians, not Atheists throwing bricks at Martin Luther King. The Greek's invented Western civilization. Yes the Enlightenment and industrial revolution came about in Christian countries but so what? Atheists have given us the Relativity, Quantum Physics, the computer you're using, the encyclopedia, penicillin, virtually all art and philosophical movements for the past 100 years, psychology, etc. www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm
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Post by phinehas on Apr 28, 2007 12:38:06 GMT -5
"(Note to Phinehas. Kevin made a clear point. It is wrong, ignorant and bigoted, but it's a clear point)"
(Note to blondie. I haven't even posted in this thread. It's a rather lame attempt to discredit what you can't refute in other threads I have actually posted in.)
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Post by blondie on Apr 28, 2007 12:52:56 GMT -5
I haven't even posted in this thread. It's a rather lame attempt to discredit what you can't refute in other threads I have actually posted in.) See, that's what I mean. You can't make a clear point. You just say, I " discredit what you can't refute." You might as well just hum.
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Post by phinehas on Apr 28, 2007 13:04:07 GMT -5
I think my point was rather clear and I did it intentionally in a humorus manner. If this is what your posts have come down to, then you can win this argument.
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Post by kevin on Apr 28, 2007 16:07:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. I wouldn't say the majority of the people on this list are/were merely atheists, nor would I say that the majority of them have contributed any real benefits to mankind. After all, is the world a better place because of the likes of George Carlin, Billy Joel, Dave Matthews (although I like his music), Marilyn Manson, etc.? My favorite on the list is Larry Flynt . 'Course, the world isn't any better because of me either, but I'm not on a list of "wonderful" anything ;D. Besides stem cell research, how has Christianity held back healthcare? And as for stem-cell research, I liked this plain quote found here: I know government <> Christianity, but what keeps private companies from pursuing the research? Where are all of those top atheist scientists spending their lab time? Most pharmaceutical companies develop drugs with one ideal: to make billions. Obviously, embryonic stem-cell must not be that promising after all. So don't just blame the lack of development on Christianity. Your assertion is not completely founded. On slavery, its sad to say, but there really is nothing much to be said about it. Does Christianity support slavery? Again, I've defined Christianity so no need to do so again, but please point to me where Christ supported slavery. I'll admit he didn't condemn it, and he did speak about it, but it was more of an idea that it was just a common place thing during the course of history. There is no indication that the slavery of the New Testament was very similar to slavery in America in the 1800s, but there was slavery nonetheless. The Bible does speak out against kidnapping and that does enter in to the type seen in America in the 1800s. The only other thing I have to point out is this: Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. I would dare say that those who advocated slavery in the 1800s viewed their slaves as equals to themselves. And the woman thing? Totally off base and there are no biblical grounds to back your statement. I get to ring the buzzer! Einstein cannot be claimed by the atheists any more than he can by non-secular. The most extensive study of Einstein's "beliefs" are found in the book "Einstein and Religion: Physics and Theology" by Max Jammer. Einstein did not believe in a personal God, but he did believe in a cosmical God. This goes against the defintion of atheism: 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. 2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods. Note the lack of the word personal in the definition. Ignorant yes, bigoted no. I don't really know any atheists and have not really sought to find out more about them, but your posts thus far in relation to human life have not made the rest of us think that you particularly value life. And it could easily be said that Stalin and Mao Tse Tung certainly did not value life. So my statement was a stereotype based on what I've seen in action and should not be construed as bigoted. In fact, since making the statement, I've read some stuff about atheism and the value of life, and much makes alot of sense. I like this one quote in particular Thing is, I have a similar view but its this: seventy years is a short time in relation to eternity. What am I going to do with it and how can I be a positive reflection of Christ? After all, when I die and go to Heaven, I will have no more opportunities to witness for Christ's sake. I need to take advantage of my time here.
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