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Post by blondie on Feb 12, 2007 22:22:42 GMT -5
I've recently become aware of a few contemporary Islamic scholars. Their rhetoric tends to be very good because they are having to rationalize their worldview in the light of the "war on terror." Here's an example. This guy... www.amazon.com/No-god-but-God-Evolution/dp/customer-reviews/0812971892...was debating Sam Harris on cspan. Sam, who I love, made the old atheist point that religion makes people do crazy thing like fly airplanes into the World Trade Center. The standard theist reply is that atheists like Stalin and Pol Pot did horrible things too. Then the standard atheist response is that there's nothing about atheism that would make anybody do anything. As opposed to Christianity or Islam where the belief systems have been the catalyst for violence. OK. That's where the debate's been for awhile. The atheist win. Now the Islamic guy, Reza Asian, counters Sam Harris with this: Muslims in America aren't acting all crazy and blowing things up. The violence is a socio-political thing that has nothing to do with religion. Atheists too would be suicide bombers if they had to put up with certain indignities. I'm an atheist, but I believe Reza makes a good point.
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Post by W.O.M.I on Feb 12, 2007 23:10:59 GMT -5
Certainly not the worst rebuttal I've ever heard.
Might the fact that Stalin and Pol Pot did not fear a possible divine punishment make them more likely to commit mass murder than a Christian/Jew/Muslim that does fear it?
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 13, 2007 1:17:01 GMT -5
I've recently become aware of a few contemporary Islamic scholars. Their rhetoric tends to be very good because they are having to rationalize their worldview in the light of the "war on terror." Here's an example. This guy... www.amazon.com/No-god-but-God-Evolution/dp/customer-reviews/0812971892...was debating Sam Harris on cspan. Sam, who I love, made the old atheist point that religion makes people do crazy thing like fly airplanes into the World Trade Center. First let's be honest, no vague concept of religion led to this particular act. Islam did. The standard theist reply is that atheists like Stalin and Pol Pot did horrible things too. Or that those that those criminals that you would like to consign to Christianity do largely miss the mark in any emulation of Christ. Then the standard atheist response is that there's nothing about atheism that would make anybody do anything. As opposed to Christianity or Islam where the belief systems have been the catalyst for violence. What are you saying that there are no atheist in foxholes? Surely you did not mean this. Atheists are perfectly capable of rationalizing the commission of otherwise undesirable acts. In what emulation of Christ was any violent act committed? Don't worry about answering such a question about mo'. It is well known that mo' was a murderous terrorist. OK. That's where the debate's been for awhile. The atheist win. Now the Islamic guy, Reza Asian, counters Sam Harris with this: Muslims in America aren't acting all crazy and blowing things up. The violence is a socio-political thing that has nothing to do with religion. Atheists too would be suicide bombers if they had to put up with certain indignities. I'm an atheist, but I believe Reza makes a good point. You must be kidding. When was the last time that a Methodist plot to blow up the Sears Tower was uncovered? When was the last time a Baptist rented a car and drove it through the Chapel Hill campus running over students? When was the last time you recall a Presbyterian shooting people at the Synagogue in Portland? Where in the Bible do you find a clear command to kill, convert, or otherwise subdue all people in the earth?
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Post by blondie on Feb 13, 2007 6:59:36 GMT -5
Might the fact that Stalin and Pol Pot did not fear a possible divine punishment make them more likely to commit mass murder than a Christian/Jew/Muslim that does fear it? Obviously atheism doesn't compel anybody to do anything it's not even a system. Only someone who was totally ignorant of moral philosophy could not imagine how someone could be lead to be a good person without believing in divine punishment. This is why I'm so impressed by Reza. My answer to Reza would be: You know you're right. The Muslims I know in Alabama are pretty much just like me, the Christians too. They don't seem particularly violent. A little crazy maybe, but aren't we all. I'm just saying he's done a good job of answering that standard atheist talking point. Of course the Atheists are still way ahead, The Islamic Renaissance has a long way to go.
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Big Talker
Newbie Cog
If The Truth Hurts So What!!!
Posts: 3
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Post by Big Talker on Feb 13, 2007 7:17:41 GMT -5
If you don't believe that GOD is real you have lost it what do you guys live for why do you wake up everyday. Your life must have no boundaries or morals and if you do have those things how can you not believe in GOD! How do you explain life? ;D
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Post by lawman on Feb 13, 2007 7:32:41 GMT -5
If you don't believe that GOD is real you have lost it what do you guys live for why do you wake up everyday. Your life must have no boundaries or morals and if you do have those things how can you not believe in GOD! How do you explain life? ;D Great post, Big Talker!
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Post by W.O.M.I on Feb 13, 2007 12:58:26 GMT -5
blondie-
You and I have done this particular dance before.
You've said nothing to convince me that atheism isn't a belief system/religion. In fact, I don't think you even tried to offer any persuasion at all, aside from the Python-esque "No, it's not!"
I did grant that I believe someone can lead a moral life even though they do not believe in God/a god, if for no other reason than it 'keeps the peace' by promoting a more civil society. I'd also venture that some believe it is the 'right thing to do' but I'd be on shaky ground as to how an atheist might come to the determination as to the 'rightness' of a particular action....aside from the obvious fact that they are the standard bearers of moral relativism so each is allowed to determine that 'rightness' based on their own abstract and malleable view of right and wrong.
As for atheism not compelling anything, you might want to have a chat with Micheal Newdow. His particular brand of atheism compels him to be a thorn in the side of literally hundreds of millions, not out of principal but rather out of a need for personal gratification and recognition.
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 15:08:23 GMT -5
blondie- You and I have done this particular dance before. You've said nothing to convince me that atheism isn't a belief system/religion. In fact, I don't think you even tried to offer any persuasion at all, aside from the Python-esque "No, it's not!" I did grant that I believe someone can lead a moral life even though they do not believe in God/a god, if for no other reason than it 'keeps the peace' by promoting a more civil society. I'd also venture that some believe it is the 'right thing to do' but I'd be on shaky ground as to how an atheist might come to the determination as to the 'rightness' of a particular action....aside from the obvious fact that they are the standard bearers of moral relativism so each is allowed to determine that 'rightness' based on their own abstract and malleable view of right and wrong. As for atheism not compelling anything, you might want to have a chat with Micheal Newdow. His particular brand of atheism compels him to be a thorn in the side of literally hundreds of millions, not out of principal but rather out of a need for personal gratification and recognition. OK, you're a Zeus Atheist. What do you feel compelled to do?
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 16:06:51 GMT -5
I'm just saying he's done a good job of answering that standard atheist talking point. By asking for a bye because of supposed injustices? He has resorted to the standard of those that wish to portray islam to be something that it clearly isn't, a religion of peace. He has asked it to be noted that many muslims have not directly involved themselves in violent jihad, and that muslims are oppressed. Where are muslims oppressed more than where muslims are in power over them? How many German's do you think were actually card carrying members of the Nazi party? How many Nazi's do you think actually manned the infamous death camps? When American commanders liberated such death camps, they forced German townspeople to visit the death camps. Today it becomes necessary to force muslims to see the crimes done throughout the world in the emulation of mohamhead. Reza Asian's excuses and rationalizations are of no use.
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 16:29:54 GMT -5
By asking for a bye because of supposed injustices? He has resorted to the standard of those that wish to portray islam to be something that it clearly isn't, a religion of peace. He has asked it to be noted that many muslims have not directly involved themselves in violent jihad, and that muslims are oppressed. Where are muslims oppressed more than where muslims are in power over them? How many German's do you think were actually card carrying members of the Nazi party? How many Nazi's do you think actually manned the infamous death camps? When American commanders liberated such death camps, they forced German townspeople to visit the death camps. Today it becomes necessary to force muslims to see the crimes done throughout the world in the emulation of mohamhead. Reza Asian's excuses and rationalizations are of no use. So we should take all the Christians to the graves of burned witches?
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 16:35:26 GMT -5
By asking for a bye because of supposed injustices? He has resorted to the standard of those that wish to portray islam to be something that it clearly isn't, a religion of peace. He has asked it to be noted that many muslims have not directly involved themselves in violent jihad, and that muslims are oppressed. Where are muslims oppressed more than where muslims are in power over them? How many German's do you think were actually card carrying members of the Nazi party? How many Nazi's do you think actually manned the infamous death camps? When American commanders liberated such death camps, they forced German townspeople to visit the death camps. Today it becomes necessary to force muslims to see the crimes done throughout the world in the emulation of mohamhead. Reza Asian's excuses and rationalizations are of no use. So we should take all the Christians to the graves of burned witches? Yes.
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 16:47:47 GMT -5
Cool, you might even be more extreme than me.
I don't think the Christian's in America today should be held responsible for the actions of a bunch of people in such different circumstances just because they share the same religion. Just Like I don't believe the Muslims in America should.
MaccusGermanis, What is your theological disposition?
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 17:03:41 GMT -5
Cool, you might even be more extreme than me. I don't think the Christian's in America today should be held responsible for the actions of a bunch of people in such different circumstances just because they share the same religion. Just Like I don't believe the Muslims in America should. MaccusGermanis, What is your theological disposition? Holding a people responsible for the sins of their ideological kin is not the same as dispelling willful distortions. Have Christians not already been taken to such graves? Do modern Christians deny that witches were persecuted? If, so then take them to the graves. If you have a witch grave that Christians should visit, then name it. Are you not the same blondie that began the thread "Southern Baptists and Slavery" ? attackmachine.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=free&action=display&thread=1171202983Did you have in mind actual criminal prosecutions of Southern Baptists for their ancestors having supported slavery or were you just plain tired of obfuscations? Whatever label I choose, there are those that might rightfully call me a liar. Since you need to label me, then I ask you to do the labeling. I cannot deny a faith in Christ. I cannot provide proof that he exists. I can only reveal what such faith has meant to me. Edit: Christian's did not need to be poss. corrected to plural
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 17:26:47 GMT -5
Holding a people responsible for the sins of their ideological kin is not the same as dispelling willful distortions. Have Christian's not already been taken to such graves? Do modern Christians deny that witches were persecuted? If, so then take them to the graves. If you have a witch grave that Christian's should visit, then name it. If you want to take the blame for witch burnings that you had nothing to do with I guess it could be intellectually honest for you to blame total strangers for crimes they didn't have anything to do with too. Seems to me that both the Bible and Koran could be used to rationalize violence or kindness. Did you have in mind actual criminal prosecutions of Southern Baptists for their ancestors having supported slavery or were you just plain tired of obfuscations? No, I just think a lot of Southern Baptists don't know their embarrassing origins. Whatever label I choose, there are those that might rightfully call me a liar. Since you need to label me, then I ask you to do the labeling. I cannot deny a faith in Christ. I cannot provide proof that he exists. I can only reveal what such faith has meant to me. I'm sure all people of faith can reveal what it means to them. It always comes down to this. Since there is obviously no objective measure to compare your faith to that of some suicide bomber it's best to take faith off the table. Muslims and Christians in America act just alike, mow the grass, watch lost. I'm sure if Christians were in the same boat as the Iraqis they would be all out of control too. I know I would. I'm saying it's socio-economic. I'd believe what these guys say about Islam before I believe Christians who are so quick to point the finger, yet totally incapable of self-criticism. "The literal meaning of Islam is peace" www.islam.com/introislam.htm
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 18:05:22 GMT -5
Holding a people responsible for the sins of their ideological kin is not the same as dispelling willful distortions. Have Christian's not already been taken to such graves? Do modern Christians deny that witches were persecuted? If, so then take them to the graves. If you have a witch grave that Christian's should visit, then name it. If you want to take the blame for witch burnings that you had nothing to do with I said no such thing. I guess it could be intellectually honest for you to blame total strangers for crimes they didn't have anything to do with too. What stranger have I blamed for what crime? I have said that excuses for islamic violence are of no use. I have clearly stated that islam is the problem. Muslims are capable of apostacy. Seems to me that both the Bible and Koran could be used to rationalize violence or kindness. It seems? Have you read either? Rationalization can be used to pretend that books are similar, so long as one remains carefully ignorant of what the books in question do actually say. No, I just think a lot of Southern Baptists don't know their embarrassing origins. True. Now how exactly is that different from the fact that muslims and their apologist are wholly ignorant of the violence inherent in islam? It always comes down to this. Since there is obviously no objective measure to compare your faith to that of some suicide bomber it's best to take faith off the table. Is that what you are doing when selectively targeting Christians? Christians that are not known for beheading their enemies in modern times. Perhaps you could take your courageous crusade that "theists" "know their embarrassing origins" to a place like Saudi Arabia? Muslims and Christians in America act just alike, mow the grass, watch lost. Drive jeeps though student unions in Chapel Hill, shoot women at Synagogues in Portland, snipe throughout the DC area, shoot shoppers in Utah, and fly planes into buildings. Just like you and me. When exactly did we do all that? I'm sure if Christians were in the same boat as the Iraqis they would be all out of control too. I know I would. I'm saying it's socio-economic. Really, are you aware that there are Christian Iraqis? Or at least there were. They are facing increasing violence from, yep you guessed it, muslims. Have you ever known a Coptic Christian to engage in terrorism? Are you aware of the oppression they are under? Did you even know they existed? I hope you understand why , the fact that an Atheist has no first hand proof that young Coptic girls are kidnapped, is no comfort to the young girls. I'd believe what these guys say about Islam before I believe Christians who are so quick to point the finger, yet totally incapable of self-criticism. "The literal meaning of Islam is peace" www.islam.com/introislam.htmPeace, no shit. I've heard it before and it is a lie. Islam means submission. And I would Believe these guys, www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=3&page=1www.apostatesofislam.com/before I believed a prevaricating propagandist. You do realize that these apostates are not entirely Christian do you not? Not even a majority are Christian. But for some reason they can see the clear distinctions that you can not. You have responded in a rather interesting manner. It shows that you are so prejudiced against people of the Christian faith that you would even take offense to such a heretic as myself. "totally incapable of self-criticism" Laughable. Christians have been reproving themselves well before some poorly informed Atheist thought to take up the cause.
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 19:13:54 GMT -5
Same old sond and dance. My link above proves what mainstream Muslims believe. All religions are peaceful at heart, even Islam. Sorry. You want to somehow group crazy radical Muslims in with reagular work-a-day Muslims living in America. Are you willing to share the blame for the Holocaust? The Nazis were Christian. www.theturning.org/folder/nazis.html
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 19:27:27 GMT -5
I've read the Bible several time.
One of the things that really stuck out at me was Jesus' prediction of some other guy that would come after him.
John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"
The Muslims believe this is a prediction of Mohammad.
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 19:34:07 GMT -5
Same old sond and dance. My link above proves what mainstream Muslims believe. All religions are peaceful at heart, even Islam. Sorry. No it proves that this is what they want you to think. Have you ever heard of taqiya? You want to somehow group crazy radical Muslims in with reagular work-a-day Muslims living in America. So you want to group past slave owners with modern Southern Baptist? I thought you'd said not. I want people to stop pretending that islam is not inherently violent. I want them to read from the koran and hadith before they ignorantly say, "All religions are peaceful at heart, even Islam." Sorry, but one link dropped, found during a handful of seconds research is a thin rebuke of the lifetimes of work done by apostates. Which Nazis were Christian? Some, surely. And Luther's early doctrine of replacement - that he did later recant- did probably plant some seeds of Jew hatred. But the very order of the Nazis was centered around the revival of more ancient traditions of Germany. Pagan, Odinist rites were re-introduced and celebrated by Hitler. And the Holocaust itself was inspired by the Armenian genocide committed by Turks. Why if as you would here suggest that Christians were so integral to the Nazi's war effort, would the Handzar SS kill Christian Serbs in Serbia? You know the Handzar? The division that was given to the command of the Pope?.....No....The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 19:35:29 GMT -5
I've read the Bible several time. One of the things that really stuck out at me was Jesus' prediction of some other guy that would come after him. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" The Muslims believe this is a prediction of Mohammad. Because there's no way it has anything to do with the day of pentecost. How many times did you say you read the Bible?
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 19:44:14 GMT -5
Obviously you are holding Christianity and Islam to different standards.
You have no objectivity so your opinion is worthless.
All those reasonable, moderate Muslims are secretly covert terrorists. All their talk of Peace is really all about hate and murder.
Christians on the other hand are all perfect. All the evil Christians aren't "real" Christians.
This lack of self-criticism and quickness to point fingers is the source of so much evil in the world.
Listen to your boy Jesus:
"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 19:44:49 GMT -5
From your link. "The opposite - that all clergymen were anti-Semitic - that I would never claim. It would not be fair to say that at all. The idea that Jesus was not a Jew but an Aryan could not be found in the sermons of Lutheran churches. That idea did not find much support at all in mainline Christian churches. But it was an idea that was gaining currency and interest and being openly speculated about among a certain type of Protestant whom I discuss in the book, known in German as 'Kulturprotestant', which literally translated means ‘culture Protestants,’ who were theologically liberal Protestants, not politically liberal Protestants. They allowed themselves to say, 'well, in the 19th century here (which was when this movement started), we have to be open to the discoveries of science, we have to allow ourselves to change our views to accommodate discoveries of the modern world, and what we have 'discovered' is that Jesus could not have been a Jew,’ for all sorts of pseudo anthropological reasons. "
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 19:46:39 GMT -5
Because there's no way it has anything to do with the day of pentecost. How many times did you say you read the Bible? I believe most Christians think this is a reference to the Holy Ghost. I don't know what it means.
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 19:57:47 GMT -5
Obviously you are holding Christianity and Islam to different standards. No. I would be quite upset to learn that Christ told his followers to "kill all unbelievers wherever you find them." I would be equally upset to learn that Christ had taken up arms himself in furtherance of such a cause. I would be equally appalled to learn that Christ married a 6 yr old girl and then consummated that marriage when she was 9. Not different standards. Christ and mo' are vastly different people. Christianity and islam are vastly different messages. You have no objectivity so your opinion is worthless. How did my objectivity come into doubt? Was it when I meekly said that I could not deny a faith in Christ? It was you that railed against me after that, having previously shown a rather hopeful attitude toward an assumed athiest. You have no objectivity. Your ill informed opinion is worthless. All those reasonable, moderate Muslims are secretly covert terrorists. All their talk of Peace is really all about hate and murder. Why are "moderate Muslims" termed "reasonable" by someone who thinks faith itself to be unreasonable? When did I ever say that all muslims are secretly covert terrorist? Christians on the other hand are all perfect. All the evil Christians aren't "real" Christians. Perfect Christian is an oxymoron. Any true Christian has confessed sins and asked for forgiveness. Which evil Christians? How do they emulate Christ? This lack of self-criticism and quickness to point fingers is the source of so much evil in the world. Are you referring to me or yourself? Listen to your boy Jesus: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." And that is exactly why ill-informed athiests and prevaricating propagandists need to stop pretending that islam does not have an unparalleled bloody past, present, and future.
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Post by MaccusGermanis on Feb 14, 2007 19:59:02 GMT -5
Because there's no way it has anything to do with the day of pentecost. How many times did you say you read the Bible? I believe most Christians think this is a reference to the Holy Ghost. I don't know what it means. Holy Ghost exactly. You at last begin to make some sense.
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 20:18:42 GMT -5
No. I would be quite upset to learn that Christ told his followers to "kill all unbelievers wherever you find them." I would be equally upset to learn that Christ had taken up arms himself in furtherance of such a cause. I would be equally appalled to learn that Christ married a 6 yr old girl and then consummated that marriage when she was 9. Not different standards. Christ and mo' are vastly different people. Christianity and Islam are vastly different messages. Gee, what do the Muslims say about this verse: www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?messageID=35724Also Jesus told his followers to castrate themselves: "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." How did my objectivity come into doubt? What objectivity? You're obviously extremely gullible when it comes to bad things about Islam and good things about Christianity. You dismiss and explain away reasonable Muslims and unreasonable Christians. I see Crazy Christians and Muslims and reasonable Christians and Muslims.
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Post by blondie on Feb 14, 2007 20:26:19 GMT -5
Holy Ghost exactly. You at last begin to make some sense. Jesus also (allegedly, since it's all hearsay) said that he was coming back during his generation. Most scholars read the gospels in this light. 2000 years and still waiting
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Post by W.O.M.I on Feb 14, 2007 23:53:24 GMT -5
To take a stab at building upon what MG is saying...
The difference between the radical elements of Islam versus those in Christianity is that modern Islam has been defined, for ill, by their most extreme elements, whilst Christians denounce those like Eric Robert Rudolph who claim to be doing the Lord's work.
It is the reluctance of 'moderate' Muslims to take to the streets in the same numbers as those radical Muslims who did so to protest the Danish cartoon, denouncing those who pervert Islam to their own ends that makes the theory that the majority of Muslims are for peace and tolerance all that much harder to argue.
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Post by blondie on Feb 15, 2007 6:12:31 GMT -5
The difference between the radical elements of Islam versus those in Christianity is that modern Islam has been defined, for ill, by their most extreme elements, whilst Christians denounce those like Eric Robert Rudolph who claim to be doing the Lord's work. It is the reluctance of 'moderate' Muslims to take to the streets in the same numbers as those radical Muslims who did so to protest the Danish cartoon, denouncing those who pervert Islam to their own ends that makes the theory that the majority of Muslims are for peace and tolerance all that much harder to argue. I don't remember any Christians "taking to the streets" over Eric Robert Rudolph. The idea that Muslims don't condemn violence is just another right-wing radio talking point aimed at people too lazy to use google. www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
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Post by phinehas on Feb 15, 2007 10:52:47 GMT -5
"Also Jesus told his followers to castrate themselves: "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." www.tektonics.org/af/eunicize.html
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Post by phinehas on Feb 15, 2007 10:58:14 GMT -5
Holy Ghost exactly. You at last begin to make some sense. Jesus also (allegedly, since it's all hearsay) said that he was coming back during his generation. Most scholars read the gospels in this light. 2000 years and still waiting I don't know what scholars you are talking about...but they must not read very well. Matt 24:34 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. KJV Mark 13:30 30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. KJV Luke 21:32 32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. KJV Now go to these three places and read prior in order to determine WHAT GENERATION he was referring to. It is obviously not HIS generation but a future time. It is during this future time when the events described will take place culminating to his return. You're giving me the impression that you are taking short cuts again and just going to the evilbible type websites and spreading their false information again. For those interested..I think, not know, the generation of the fig tree is the establishment of the state of Israel...which makes it 1948. The generation of 1948 will be present when all this takes place, including his return.
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