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Post by kevin on May 18, 2007 20:42:05 GMT -5
I agree with Matt on alot of stuff, but this was at least the 3rd time I heard him bring up the migraine scenario to justify steroid use. Here's his proposed scenario: A baseball player suffers from migraine headaches. If he is given some for of medication to allow him to play, is that not an enhancement?
ABSURD!
Steroids are a form of enhancement, plain and simple. If someone is given medication to alleviate pain, that does not make them perform any better than those periods that they are without the pain naturally. A player with migraines will NOT have a migraine every game and medication for the migraine will merely allow him to play without the pain decreasing his performance.
Steroids enhance above and beyond natural ability.
Very, very poor analogy IMHO.
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 18, 2007 22:51:12 GMT -5
First off, let me say that I think Bonds is a jerk.
He's also one helluva baseball player. Always was, even before he (almost certainly) took some sort of pharmacological Fountain Of Youth.
He was well on his way to a HOF career even before he turned into Roidzilla.
I think 550 or even 600 homers was well within his grasp. Couple that with 400+ stolen bases and those are HOF stats. No one had done that before.
As for the impact of his (probable) steroid use, I think many people overstate its impact.
You still have to have the hand-eye coordination necessary to hit a baseball- arguably the single most difficult feat in sports. Yes, the added strength roids give you can turn a warning trach shot into a home run....but you still have to be able to hit the ball first.
It's arguable if steroids give you quicker wrists- so that you can turn on the ball faster- or if the bulking-up effect actually slows your wrist action.
Maybe steroid use allows you to recover from injury faster....but, again, artificially bulked-up muscles would seem to be a muscle pull waiting to happen.
I also can't help but point out that he has- thus far- never failed a drug test of any kind. Maybe he's cheating to pass the tests- and that possibility wouldn't shock me at all- but he should be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
And yeah it does hurt a bit to say that.
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Post by billt on May 18, 2007 23:54:23 GMT -5
big misconception about how steriods work...they do NOT "enhance performance" per se...they DO allow an athlete to work out harder in the weight room and recover faster and work out more and more often thereby developing more muscle mass, if they are then skilled enough to use it indeed in areas of strngth their performance is enhanced but it is enhanced by HARD WORK, not some magic pill.
a person can take steriods and NOT exercise and their performance in any sporting event will NOT be enhanced in any way.
as to pain and athletic performance i have first hand experience over many years, INDEED any pill that decreases the pain level enhances the ability to perform!
unless you consider a change from being UNable to perform at all to competing at a professional level no enhancement of performance?
as to bonds, never met or interviewed him but i assure you many of the pitchers he faced also used any "enhancement" they could find or get away with at the time...bonds has skills that very few ever had and steriods had NOTHING to do with that.
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Post by W.O.M.I on May 19, 2007 16:09:02 GMT -5
I know that another tack Bonds' supporters use is to point out that, during the time Bonds may have taken steroids, they weren't illegal.
They then point to players who drank alcohol during Prohibition as players who broke the law but were not held accountable.
They also point to players who have admitted (Steve Howe, Dock Ellis) who admit to having used illegal drugs while playing.
Two counters to that:
First, I think Howe was eventually- if belatedly- held accountable for using illegal drugs. I'm not sure about Ellis.
Secondly, can anyone make a convincing case that booze, grass or cocaine actually enhance athletic ability like steroids can?
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Post by kevin on May 19, 2007 17:40:08 GMT -5
My point to this whole post was the migraine scenario. In what way does relieving the pain of a migraine give a player an edge over another player who does not have migraines. And does the player with migraines have an edge when he does not have to take the pain reliever? No, that's just it -- it allows him to perform to levels he would if he did not have the migraines. No extra advantage over anyone else.
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Post by billt on May 19, 2007 18:52:00 GMT -5
this provides insight into old school vs new school thinking.
so getting "an edge" should be illegal in sports? practicing MORE than others and thereby getting better should NOT be allowed? eating a proper diet and getting proper rest shouldnt be allowed because some dont?
the whole purpose of practicing and competing is to "get an edge" over your opponent.
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Post by kevin on May 19, 2007 22:14:04 GMT -5
?? Who ever said that I considered diet and exercise, practice and working out, etc. an unfair edge? You read way too far into my statement. Or maybe you're responding to someone else, then sorry! Anyhow, lets take the Olympics. We all know that to be an olympian, you have to work long hours, you have to have the utmost dedication, and many give up any many other endeavors in life to get to that level. Obviously, that's what it takes. But if someone takes a chemical enhancement that is illegal, therein lies the problem. This is the edge I'm talking about. It should all be about the hard work and dedication and natural talent only, not what extra boost you can get from chemicals. EDIT: And just so you're not getting your info from people who don't have a real clue (me), here are some articles for ya: Can steroids enhance athletic performance?Use of Steroids for Self-Enhancement: An Epidemiologic/Societal Perspective
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Post by billt on May 19, 2007 23:36:07 GMT -5
kevin from the second paragraph of the first link
"Considering available scientific evidence and overwhelmingly consistent anecdotal reports of athletes, we can conclude anabolic steroids are associated with increase in strength," writes Yesalis in the book Anabolic Steroids in Sport and Exercise."
that CONFIRMS what i said one can increase strength using steriods, BUT the work still has to be done! the steriod by itself does NOT make you stronger.
further down again exactly what i posted about the ability to train harder.
"To boost their strength is not the sole reason athletes turn to steroids, Yesalis adds. "They have been taken for at least 45 years by endurance athletes to recover from workouts rapidly. With steroids, a marathon runner can run longer, a swimmer can do more laps and a cyclist can spend more time pedaling." In sports where endurance is everything, the ability to last longer during workouts and competitions confers a definite advantage."
AGAIN the actual training MUST BE DONE to gain an advantage.
thank you kevin for the link confirming what i said steriods DO.
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Post by kevin on May 19, 2007 23:55:47 GMT -5
AGAIN the actual training MUST BE DONE to gain an advantage. thank you kevin for the link confirming what i said steriods DO. That I know. If I could gain muscle mass by taking steroids alone, I might try some. Well, not really, but if two athletes have very similar abilities to gain muscle mass naturally, and they both follow very similar workout regimens, then theoretically, by taking steroids, one gains the advantage over the other.
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