tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 23:36:24 GMT -5
Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 23:36:24 GMT -5
There's NO MORE WASTING TIME with you on this issue!!
There are consequences!
King James Version: Revelation Chapter 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I don't see how I've taken anything out. Secondly, if you are correct in that any slight misinterpretation of scripture or of Revelation in particular would lead to a loss of salvation then you'd better be right about every single thing you believe or you're in trouble yourself.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 23:45:21 GMT -5
Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 23:45:21 GMT -5
From your link: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."Two things to point out here. If Christians are flown away via a secret rapture, then how did THESE Christians become beheaded due to not worshiping the beast, which is speaking of the tribulation period? Secondly, you will notice that they are killed during the tribulation and come back to life AFTER the tribulation and reign with Christ a thousand years, which is the millenial period. This shows that Christ's return is AFTER the tribulation and that Christians are still present on earth during the tribulation and in fact some are killed because of their testimony and return with Christ. It is a good point, but you are missing the fact that 144,000 Jews will be saved in the middle of the tribulation and it says that they will go around the world spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is perfectly reasonable to assume many people will become Christians during the tribulation who were not taken in the rapture. These will suffer great persecution. Also, I'd like to make a little bit of a correction. I said earlier that that passage in Matthew about "one being taken and the other left" referred to the rapture. That may very well not be true. I've heard a sermon by David Jeremiah who says this may actually refer to the tribulation itself where some people are being killed (taken) during the tribulation and some are left. This may be the "taking" that takes place that is like the "taking" in Noah's day. I'm not sure. Also, the 7th trump may also be referring to the Second Coming. I'm taking a class on Revelation right now through my church. One of our teachers was talking about how he is not sure that the book of Revelation is very chronological and a thorough examination of Revelation may very well reveal that. I may have to cede that point to you. I'm not sure. Still, I don't think Paul was referring to the 7th trumpet.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 5, 2007 0:56:12 GMT -5
If you're asking me to defend Hal Lindsey then you're asking the wrong person. Obviosuly, Lindsey was incorrect with his very specific and time-table related predictions. This does not mean a rapture will never occur or that some of the more general predictions that Lindsey made (those based on the Bible) won't ever come true. You have to remember that the author's rebuttal is based on today's events, not the potential for Biblical prophecy to be fulfilled at some point in the future.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 5, 2007 1:10:34 GMT -5
Secondly, you will notice that they are killed during the tribulation and come back to life AFTER the tribulation and reign with Christ a thousand years, which is the millenial period. This shows that Christ's return is AFTER the tribulation and that Christians are still present on earth during the tribulation and in fact some are killed because of their testimony and return with Christ. I absolutely agree that Jesus Christ's coming is after the tribulation. That is clearly portrayed in the Bible. What I'm saying though is that that Second Coming is on a predictable date because the tribulation will only last 7 years. Once the tribulation begins then everyone will know the day if they're paying attention. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.This clearly states that there is another event that will be totally unpredictable. I believe this event to be the rapture. The rapture is not a 'coming.' The rapture is a "meeting in the air." The rapture is referred to as a 'coming' in a figurative sense and compared to the "coming of a thief in the night." This symbolism is telling us that Christians will be taken in the same manner as a thief in the night comes to rob a house. In other words, you don't know when it's going to happen and that is why a Christian must remain "watchful." "Watchful" simply means that one is living a holy life and expectant of the coming of Jesus Christ rather than those who say Jesus isn't coming back at all and decide to live whatever way they want to live.
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Post by lawman on Apr 5, 2007 1:56:52 GMT -5
There's NO MORE WASTING TIME with you on this issue!!
There are consequences!
King James Version: Revelation Chapter 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I don't see how I've taken anything out. Secondly, if you are correct in that any slight misinterpretation of scripture or of Revelation in particular would lead to a loss of salvation then you'd better be right about every single thing you believe or you're in trouble yourself. YOU'RE A TOTAL FREAKIN' IDIOT!
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 5, 2007 8:13:09 GMT -5
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 10:09:58 GMT -5
Post by blondie on Apr 5, 2007 10:09:58 GMT -5
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.A lot of people believe Jesus said he as coming back right away. Before the people he was talking to died. That's what they teach in accredited colleges. Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from. Jack Van Impe pushed it up to the 6-day war, 1967. Which makes the end of times 2007. What ever you think about 'ol Jack he's not afraid to go out on a limb with his predictions. I don't put much store in how Christian's interpret this stuff because they refuse to entertain any facts that would suggest their religion isn't true. This is a perfect formula for getting the wrong answer. www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 10:23:40 GMT -5
Post by espy on Apr 5, 2007 10:23:40 GMT -5
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.A lot of people believe Jesus said he as coming back right away. Before the people he was talking to died. That's what they teach in accredited colleges. Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from. Jack Van Impe pushed it up to the 6-day war, 1967. Which makes the end of times 2007. What ever you think about 'ol Jack he's not afraid to go out on a limb with his predictions. I don't put much store in how Christian's interpret this stuff because they refuse to entertain any facts that would suggest their religion isn't true. This is a perfect formula for getting the wrong answer. www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html I one to think that anyone can predict when it will be but the word of God says that the wise man will see the signs and to be ready. And I do believe that the statement "this generation" means just as it states, the generation that sees Israel become a state and when it will be encompassed by its enemies. This was written long ago but oddly enough it is coming to pass.
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 10:32:20 GMT -5
Post by espy on Apr 5, 2007 10:32:20 GMT -5
this is for everyone to ponder...2 Peter 3 (King James Version) King James Version (KJV)
I hate to call anyone out but you have put yourselves in the spotlight.
lawman, you should look at verse three rich and blondie, you should pay close attention to verses four & five
2 Peter 3 1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 10:42:30 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on Apr 5, 2007 10:42:30 GMT -5
tusker-
Context:
There were three questions asked about two events:
24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
"When shall these things be?" - the "these" are pointed out in the next two questions....
#1 What shall be the sign of thy coming.
# 2 What shall be be the sign of the end of the world.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
"This clearly states that there is another event that will be totally unpredictable. I believe this event to be the rapture."
I disagree, Mathew 24:36 is a statement in relation to the two questions asked by the disciples. The signs have been given...we will know the season but not the DAY or HOUR of his return.
You have to remember that even though these events are written in scripture, people will still be deceived as it states below and if it were not for the fact that the tribulation period will be shortened (it's not seven years) the difficulty in not being deceived would be very great indeed.:
Matt 24:21-24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect . KJV
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 11:08:21 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on Apr 5, 2007 11:08:21 GMT -5
"Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from."
I posted this to you before. The generation is 70 or 80 years.
Ps 90:10 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. KJV
So, look for the tribulation and Jesus return by 2028.
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 11:20:34 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 5, 2007 11:20:34 GMT -5
"Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from." I posted this to you before. The generation is 70 or 80 years. Ps 90:10 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. KJV So, look for the tribulation and Jesus return by 2028. I AGREE! I made the exact comment to someone a month ago!
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 11:22:46 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 5, 2007 11:22:46 GMT -5
And I strongly believe it could be years SOONER than '28!
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 11:30:54 GMT -5
Post by blondie on Apr 5, 2007 11:30:54 GMT -5
\And I do believe that the statement "this generation" means just as it states, the generation that sees Israel become a state and when it will be encompassed by its enemies. This was written long ago but oddly enough it is coming to pass. That generation ended in 1988. One thing about end-times prophecies. They've been 100% wrong so far. Also, "just as it states" would be the people right in front of him.
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 11:46:47 GMT -5
Post by blondie on Apr 5, 2007 11:46:47 GMT -5
"Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from." I posted this to you before. The generation is 70 or 80 years. Ps 90:10 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. KJV So, look for the tribulation and Jesus return by 2028. A generation has always been 40 years until 1988 when the dispensationalists were proven wrong and decided to reinterpret the tradition. This is all Will o' the wisp. Every time the end doesn't come all the rules change. Seems like this would spark a little doubt in the system. Also 80 years from Israeli statehood is 2008 Anyone want to bet pink slips on rapture in the next 21 months?
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 12:04:18 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 5, 2007 12:04:18 GMT -5
"Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from." I posted this to you before. The generation is 70 or 80 years. Ps 90:10 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. KJV So, look for the tribulation and Jesus return by 2028. A generation has always been 40 years until 1988 when the dispensationalists were proven wrong and decided to reinterpret the tradition. This is all Will o' the wisp. Every time the end doesn't come all the rules change. Seems like this would spark a little doubt in the system. Also 80 years from Israeli statehood is 2008 Anyone want to bet pink slips on rapture in the next 21 months? Say, blondie, I didn't post that about the timeframe....I only responded!---Phinehas posted that!
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 12:26:46 GMT -5
Post by blondie on Apr 5, 2007 12:26:46 GMT -5
;)fixed.
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 12:38:25 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 5, 2007 12:38:25 GMT -5
Thanks, blondie!
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 13:09:11 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on Apr 5, 2007 13:09:11 GMT -5
"Some fundamentalists believe "this generation" refers to the generation that saw Israel become a state. Generations are usually 40 years. That's where the 1988 comes from." I posted this to you before. The generation is 70 or 80 years. Ps 90:10 10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. KJV So, look for the tribulation and Jesus return by 2028. A generation has always been 40 years until 1988 when the dispensationalists were proven wrong and decided to reinterpret the tradition. This is all Will o' the wisp. Every time the end doesn't come all the rules change. Seems like this would spark a little doubt in the system. Also 80 years from Israeli statehood is 2008 Anyone want to bet pink slips on rapture in the next 21 months? Last I checked, 80 + 1948 = 2028, not 2008. Blondie, I am 38 years old. I have only been a Christian since I was 21 years old. It is not in my ability to correct what Christians thought, theologically in the past. I can ONLY speak to what I believe, which is based on my study of the Bible. People do make mistakes. People have been wrong about a lot of things. If your argument is based on the logic that I am wrong by default, because of what past Christians believed or what other current Christians believe, then your logic is seriously flawed. Could I be wrong? We will know that by 2030. You can say you told me so, then.
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 15:21:49 GMT -5
Post by blondie on Apr 5, 2007 15:21:49 GMT -5
Right, right the Jack Van Impe thing threw me off. Here's a good parlor trick. Almost all barcodes have this on them:
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Rapture
Apr 5, 2007 16:30:38 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on Apr 5, 2007 16:30:38 GMT -5
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 6, 2007 0:40:57 GMT -5
tusker- Context: There were three questions asked about two events: 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? "When shall these things be?" - the "these" are pointed out in the next two questions.... #1 What shall be the sign of thy coming. # 2 What shall be be the sign of the end of the world. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. "This clearly states that there is another event that will be totally unpredictable. I believe this event to be the rapture." I disagree, Mathew 24:36 is a statement in relation to the two questions asked by the disciples. The signs have been given...we will know the season but not the DAY or HOUR of his return. You have to remember that even though these events are written in scripture, people will still be deceived as it states below and if it were not for the fact that the tribulation period will be shortened (it's not seven years) the difficulty in not being deceived would be very great indeed.: Matt 24:21-24 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect . KJV Well, you make several interesting points. I'm going to have to look further into this. I will say this though, the tribulation does last 7 years. It is the 70th week prophecied by Daniel. I believe that the verse, 22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." refers to the fact that if these things were allowed to progress without any intervention from Jesus Christ then no one would survive it all.
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 8:08:47 GMT -5
I know the barcode thing is bogus, but you gotta' wonder what they were thinking. It kind of reminds me of the Susan B. Anthony quarter, I mean dollar.
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