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Post by phinehas on Apr 3, 2007 9:11:22 GMT -5
tusker,
Don't know why you are touting 1 Cor chapter 15 as proof text for a rapture. It states the exact opposite.
1 Cor15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The "last trump", is the seventh trumpet.
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (*"prevent" means precede")
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV
Paul states that Jesus will return at the time of the trumpet that coresponds with the last one, the seventh trumpet. There is no other trumpet in Revelations that can be associated with the return of Jesus other than the seventh.
Paul then writes in 2 Thes 2:1 because some people were confused by what he wrote back in 1 Thess 4.
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Jesus returns only once and he will reign on earth for 1,000 years. That is the period of time were there will be some that have the opportunity to be saved by WORKS ONLY and not by faith.
The point being is that Christians WILL be here during the great tribulation period, they will not be flying away. Christians however will be protected, to an extent, though some will become martyrs and all will be persecuted to some extent.
Noah and his family were not taken out of the world during that period but were helped to go through it, the same will be for Christians during the tribulation.
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Rapture
Apr 3, 2007 11:03:58 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 3, 2007 11:03:58 GMT -5
tusker, Don't know why you are touting 1 Cor chapter 15 as proof text for a rapture. It states the exact opposite. 1 Cor15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The "last trump", is the seventh trumpet. 1 Thess 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (*"prevent" means precede") 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV Paul states that Jesus will return at the time of the trumpet that coresponds with the last one, the seventh trumpet. There is no other trumpet in Revelations that can be associated with the return of Jesus other than the seventh. Paul then writes in 2 Thes 2:1 because some people were confused by what he wrote back in 1 Thess 4. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Jesus returns only once and he will reign on earth for 1,000 years. That is the period of time were there will be some that have the opportunity to be saved by WORKS ONLY and not by faith. The point being is that Christians WILL be here during the great tribulation period, they will not be flying away. Christians however will be protected, to an extent, though some will become martyrs and all will be persecuted to some extent. Noah and his family were not taken out of the world during that period but were helped to go through it, the same will be for Christians during the tribulation. A'men!!!!!!!!!!!
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 0:19:28 GMT -5
tusker, Don't know why you are touting 1 Cor chapter 15 as proof text for a rapture. It states the exact opposite. 1 Cor15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The "last trump", is the seventh trumpet. 1 Thess 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (*"prevent" means precede") 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV Paul states that Jesus will return at the time of the trumpet that coresponds with the last one, the seventh trumpet. There is no other trumpet in Revelations that can be associated with the return of Jesus other than the seventh. Paul then writes in 2 Thes 2:1 because some people were confused by what he wrote back in 1 Thess 4. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Jesus returns only once and he will reign on earth for 1,000 years. That is the period of time were there will be some that have the opportunity to be saved by WORKS ONLY and not by faith. The point being is that Christians WILL be here during the great tribulation period, they will not be flying away. Christians however will be protected, to an extent, though some will become martyrs and all will be persecuted to some extent. Noah and his family were not taken out of the world during that period but were helped to go through it, the same will be for Christians during the tribulation. It's a fine point, however, you have to take context into account. The "last trump" that is referred to is not the 7th trump from Revelation. Paul is writing this epistle long before the book of Revelation was written and to refer to the 7th trump, something that not even he knew would occur yet, would not have made any sense to the Thessalonians. The statement would have been meaningless. The "last trump" referred to by Paul is a literal trump, not a figurative trump as is described in Revelation. The "last trump" is referred to as "a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God." This is not the description of the 7th trump in Revelation. Revelation 11:15-19 describes the 7th trumpet. This does not describe a homecoming of sorts. Also, it does not take place at the end of the tribulation. If Christians are to go through the tribulation at all, this passage would indicate that they would not endure all of it. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2011:15-19%20;&version=49;Also, as you read in 1 Thessalonians 4, Jesus' 'coming' is not a real 'coming.' There is a meeting in the air and the Christians remain with Jesus Christ for all eternity. If this were to describe the Second Coming then it would be referring to the time when Jesus actually steps foot on the Mount of Olives and begin to take over for 1,000 years. Yet, it does not. In that instance, there would be no need for a "rapture" at all and yet one is clearly described in 1 Corinthians 15...."twinkling of an eye, we will be changed, meeting in the air." All of these references are to a rapture. Once again, the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2 is dealing with people who have been told that the Millenial reign was already in full swing. Paul was rebutting this obvious lie. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202:1-3;&version=49;2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, The lie that the millenial reign is already taking place is a myth that is still spread today. Some interpret it as more of a spiritual undertaking that a literal one that is described in Revelation. This is the lie that Paul was rebutting, not that the "rapture" wouldn't be coming until half way or all the way through the tribulation. Another thing to consider is that Noah was protected from judgement. He didn't endure the flood. He and his family were rescued totally from it. They weren't taken through it. Anyone that did not trust in God was destroyed, they didn't just suffer. Also, you state that some will be saved by works and not by faith. This has never been true nor will it ever be true. Romans 4 indicates that the Law never saved anyone in the Old Testament. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&version=49Also, Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that no man is saved by works and the reasoning for this is clearly displayed throughout the New Testament. God did not choose the method with which we would be saved. Justice demanded punishment and the only one who could take that punishment for man was either man itself or Jesus Christ. Man would have to pay for his sins in Hell, there would be no salvation by works. If a man ever could be saved by works then it would not matter what period of time that man lived in. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Also, look at Romans 8 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%208;&version=9;
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 0:35:45 GMT -5
There is NO 'RAPTURE' teaching in the Bible! No word 'rapture!' Men who wanted to dream up an easy way of avoiding the TRUTH DREAMED UP THAT LIE! Believe what you want! I pulled this from another thread Whether there is an actual word "rapture" in the Bible or not is irrelevant. The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible and yet the term clearly refers to a fact put forth in Scripture. Again, 1 Corinthians 15. If that is not a teaching for a rapture then I don't know what is....
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Post by lawman on Apr 4, 2007 0:59:15 GMT -5
'RAPTURE' is a false teaching! I guess you don't believe God can't LET HIS PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH!
You are a novice 24 years old and DECEIVED!
And IF you are unprepared to ENDURE TO THE END, well read that for your self!
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Post by espy on Apr 4, 2007 1:17:58 GMT -5
tusker, Don't know why you are touting 1 Cor chapter 15 as proof text for a rapture. It states the exact opposite. 1 Cor15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The "last trump", is the seventh trumpet. 1 Thess 4:13-18 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (*"prevent" means precede") 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. KJV Paul states that Jesus will return at the time of the trumpet that coresponds with the last one, the seventh trumpet. There is no other trumpet in Revelations that can be associated with the return of Jesus other than the seventh. Paul then writes in 2 Thes 2:1 because some people were confused by what he wrote back in 1 Thess 4. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Jesus returns only once and he will reign on earth for 1,000 years. That is the period of time were there will be some that have the opportunity to be saved by WORKS ONLY and not by faith. The point being is that Christians WILL be here during the great tribulation period, they will not be flying away. Christians however will be protected, to an extent, though some will become martyrs and all will be persecuted to some extent. Noah and his family were not taken out of the world during that period but were helped to go through it, the same will be for Christians during the tribulation. A'men!!!!!!!!!!! second that A'men
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Post by espy on Apr 4, 2007 1:22:31 GMT -5
tusker....your a southern baptist aren't you......your interpretation is exactly like my wife's.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 1:48:47 GMT -5
tusker....your a southern baptist aren't you......your interpretation is exactly like my wife's. Yes. What about you? I see very clear evidence that a 'rapture' will take place and that it will take place before the tribulation begins. Of course, it is always possible that I'm wrong. If I am, it is not a huge issue other than the fact that I'll have to endure some of the tribulation if I'm still alive at that point. What matters is one's faith in Jesus Christ and that trust in saving grace along with repentance from sin is what makes a person saved.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 1:57:52 GMT -5
'RAPTURE' is a false teaching! I guess you don't believe God can't LET HIS PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH!You are a novice 24 years old and DECEIVED! And IF you are unprepared to ENDURE TO THE END, well read that for your self! What point are you trying to make? Are you saying that "God will not let His people know the truth"? I'm totally confused on what you're saying. Secondly, I have given an argument as to why I believe the rapture will take place. If you have an argument to refute that then please put it forth because I would like to have an accurate understanding of Scripture. Simply restating that the rapture is a false teaching doesn't prove anything. Third, the fact that I'm younger than you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. There are a great deal of elderly people who don't know a lot about Scripture and a lot of younger people who have a good understanding stemming from their desire to study. Please give me some evidence that I'm deceived. Also, are you implying that an incorrect interpretation of scripture in this point of doctrine means that I'm not saved? Again, please point to a source for this. "Enduring to the end" simply means that a person who falls away from Jesus Christ never believed in the first place regardless of how long they may have espoused a belief.
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Post by phinehas on Apr 4, 2007 2:06:53 GMT -5
Explain to me were Jesus speaks of a rapture. Why do you say that Jesus comes three times to earth? He already came to earth once, born to a virgin, he is only supposed to be coming back once.
24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
as far as the seventh trump, if this isn't in reference to when Jesus returns and establishes his kingdom on earth, what does it reference?
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
"It's a fine point, however, you have to take context into account. The "last trump" that is referred to is not the 7th trump from Revelation. Paul is writing this epistle long before the book of Revelation was written and to refer to the 7th trump, something that not even he knew would occur yet, would not have made any sense to the Thessalonians. The statement would have been meaningless.
The "last trump" referred to by Paul is a literal trump, not a figurative trump as is described in Revelation. The "last trump" is referred to as "a shout, the voice of an archangel, and the trump of God." This is not the description of the 7th trump in Revelation."
If you are saying that Paul is unable to speak of future events BECAUSE he wrote prior to the book of Revelations, would that not make invalid the words of Jesus, when he speaks of future events, which is prior to Revelations as well?
Agreed that Paul does not say explicitly, the seventh trump...I don't see where in scripture that this trumpet, which really is just a significant and noticeable moment in time, can be anything but the last trumpet of revelations.
I will have to also disagree with you on the faith/works issue DURING Christ's Millenium rule. How is any faith required when Jesus as king, defacto is on earth and his teaching those people that did not take part in the first resurrection? During the millenium, there is no longer any question as to who he is.
"The lie that the millenial reign is already taking place is a myth that is still spread today."
What? That is the first I have heard of that. I am not aware of any Christians that believe the millenial reign has started already. When Jesus returns, those alive shall be changed....changed into something other than what we are, ie. we are going to know it. Until that happens, Jesus has not returned yet.
You make some good points and I will try to address later.
Logically speaking, based on scripture, there really is no point whatsoever for a rapture that takes away all the people that will be saved. Why would Jesus do that, then, according to you, return "fully" and reign a thousand years over people that are damned, to then, make an offical judgement at the end of the thousand years?
As I showed above, Jesus himself gives the order of events and he doesn't speak of him coming back for a preview pickup to then leave and then come back again. He says he comes back once and everyone alive on the earth will know it...there is nothing secret he describes.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Apr 4, 2007 3:31:44 GMT -5
Explain to me were Jesus speaks of a rapture. Why do you say that Jesus comes three times to earth? He already came to earth once, born to a virgin, he is only supposed to be coming back once. I'm not stating that Jesus comes 3 times. He will only come one more time. As I said, the rapture is not a 'coming.' Christians will be taken as is stated in: 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.A 'rapture' is clearly spoken of here. This isn't a description of the end almost immediately before Armageddon. I doubt anyone is worrying about fields or mills when the earth has been totally devastated. Some are taken, just as Enoch was in the Old Testament. Also, the key phrases in this passage are that no man will know the time. We know that the tribulation last 7 years. Once the tribulation begins, we can begin counting down the days until Jesus Christ returns. In other words, we'd know without a shadow of a doubt. The only way we won't know is if there is a pseudo-coming before the tribulation ever begins...the rapture. Only after the rapture begins can a 7 year tribulation period begin. The fact that the 7th trumpet occurs in chapter 11 of Revelation when there are still more events to occur on earth seems to indicate that this does not directly refer to the Second Coming. I could be wrong here, but the book of Revelation does not seem to get ahead of itself like that in any passage. I'm not saying at all that Paul could not know what the future was if it was revealed to him by Jesus. Secondly, Jesus is God so he already knows what's going to happen before Revelation is written or not. What I am saying is that for Paul to refer to the 7th trumpet as an event in the future without describing what this meant wouldn't make any sense. The Thessalonians or Paul for that matter didn't know anything about 7 trumpets or seals or viles or anything yet. If he did, then he would have stated so. Paul did reveal a little of the future as he said "i reveal to you a mystery, we will not all sleep." That is a statement of something that is divine that was revealed to him and I believe it refers to a rapture. I do not think you have a Scriptural basis for that belief. Ephesians and the rest of the Bible are clear on this. One must have faith and repentance not because one needs great proof of Jesus Christ's existence, but because of one's sin and therefore a need for a Savior that can pay our penalty for us. Works could never cover up our past sins. We are asked to have faith in Christ, not just in His existence, but in His ability and His ability alone to pay for our sins. There are many people that believe in the existence of God and even Jesus Christ, but they rely on their own goodness to obtain salvation and that is unBiblical in every way. If you look further into the book of Revelation you will see that there is one final rebellion in the world after the 1000 reign. Many of the people on the earth are not saved and will reveal that. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:7-10;&version=31;If Jesus was coming back at the Second Coming to rule only over saved people then this wouldn't be possible. The Christians will be changed before the tribulation and will return with Jesus Christ at the Second Coming "to rule and reign with Jesus." I assume from Scripture that some people who were alive in the tribulation will still be alive and will produce 'lost' children themsleves. If they are still alive then there is the possibilty that they could be saved. You'll also see that there will be a lot of children born during the 1000 year reign and references to people of 100 years of age being almost like kids compared to others. Remember, the tribulation is a judgement upon the people of the earth. The 1000 year reign is the Kingdom of Jesus Christ on earth. Peace will be uniform although there will still be a little freedom to sin by those who are not already Christians.
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Post by lawman on Apr 4, 2007 5:59:54 GMT -5
'RAPTURE' is a false teaching! I guess you don't believe God can't LET HIS PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH!You are a novice 24 years old and DECEIVED! And IF you are unprepared to ENDURE TO THE END, well read that for your self! What point are you trying to make? Are you saying that "God will not let His people know the truth"? I'm totally confused on what you're saying. Secondly, I have given an argument as to why I believe the rapture will take place. If you have an argument to refute that then please put it forth because I would like to have an accurate understanding of Scripture. Simply restating that the rapture is a false teaching doesn't prove anything. Third, the fact that I'm younger than you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. There are a great deal of elderly people who don't know a lot about Scripture and a lot of younger people who have a good understanding stemming from their desire to study. Please give me some evidence that I'm deceived. Also, are you implying that an incorrect interpretation of scripture in this point of doctrine means that I'm not saved? Again, please point to a source for this. "Enduring to the end" simply means that a person who falls away from Jesus Christ never believed in the first place regardless of how long they may have espoused a belief. There's NO MORE WASTING TIME with you on this issue!!
There are consequences!
King James Version: Revelation Chapter 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
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Mark
Newbie Cog
Posts: 32
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Post by Mark on Apr 4, 2007 7:42:47 GMT -5
Rapture by Blondie
Toe to toe Dancing very slow Barely breathing Almost comatose Wall to wall People hypnotised And they're stepping lightly Hang each night in Rapture
Back to back Sacrailiac Spineless movement And a wild attack
Face to face Sadly solitude And it's finger popping Twenty-four hour shopping in Rapture
Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind Flash is fast, Flash is cool Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do And you don't stop, sure shot Go out to the parking lot And you get in your car and you drive real far And you drive all night and then you see a light And it comes right down and lands on the ground And out comes a man from Mars And you try to run but he's got a gun And he shoots you dead and he eats your head And then you're in the man from Mars You go out at night, eatin' cars You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too Mercurys and Subarus And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars Then, when there's no more cars You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet Face to face, dance cheek to cheek One to one, man to man Dance toe to toe Don't move to slow, 'cause the man from Mars Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall He's gonna eat 'em all Rapture, be pure Take a tour, through the sewer Don't strain your brain, paint a train You'll be singin' in the rain I said don't stop, do punk rock
Well now you see what you wanna be Just have your party on TV 'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on And now he's gone back up to space Where he won't have a hassle with the human race And you hip-hop, and you don't stop Just blast off, sure shot 'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars And now he only eats guitars, get up!
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Post by Dale Jackson on Apr 4, 2007 8:05:57 GMT -5
get back to work
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Mark
Newbie Cog
Posts: 32
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Post by Mark on Apr 4, 2007 8:07:49 GMT -5
Come on Dale, it is like you have a "Heart of Glass"!
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 4, 2007 8:24:06 GMT -5
Way to go, Mark...I forgot all about that one!
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 4, 2007 8:24:44 GMT -5
What point are you trying to make? Are you saying that "God will not let His people know the truth"? I'm totally confused on what you're saying. Secondly, I have given an argument as to why I believe the rapture will take place. If you have an argument to refute that then please put it forth because I would like to have an accurate understanding of Scripture. Simply restating that the rapture is a false teaching doesn't prove anything. Third, the fact that I'm younger than you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. There are a great deal of elderly people who don't know a lot about Scripture and a lot of younger people who have a good understanding stemming from their desire to study. Please give me some evidence that I'm deceived. Also, are you implying that an incorrect interpretation of scripture in this point of doctrine means that I'm not saved? Again, please point to a source for this. "Enduring to the end" simply means that a person who falls away from Jesus Christ never believed in the first place regardless of how long they may have espoused a belief. There's NO MORE WASTING TIME with you on this issue!!
There are consequences!
King James Version: Revelation Chapter 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
False Prophet.
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:07:49 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on Apr 4, 2007 10:07:49 GMT -5
From your link:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Two things to point out here. If Christians are flown away via a secret rapture, then how did THESE Christians become beheaded due to not worshiping the beast, which is speaking of the tribulation period?
Secondly, you will notice that they are killed during the tribulation and come back to life AFTER the tribulation and reign with Christ a thousand years, which is the millenial period.
This shows that Christ's return is AFTER the tribulation and that Christians are still present on earth during the tribulation and in fact some are killed because of their testimony and return with Christ.
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:11:05 GMT -5
Post by dixiepixie on Apr 4, 2007 10:11:05 GMT -5
From your link: "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."Two things to point out here. If Christians are flown away via a secret rapture, then how did THESE Christians become beheaded due to not worshiping the beast, which is speaking of the tribulation period? Secondly, you will notice that they are killed during the tribulation and come back to life AFTER the tribulation and reign with Christ a thousand years, which is the millenial period. This shows that Christ's return is AFTER the tribulation and that Christians are still present on earth during the tribulation and in fact some are killed because of their testimony and return with Christ. If you follow the Left Behind teachings, these are the people who were "riding the fence" at the time of the Rapture, but received Christ during the Tribulation. I have read all of the books, and they make a great story.
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:46:07 GMT -5
Post by phinehas on Apr 4, 2007 10:46:07 GMT -5
The rapture theory didn't start with the Left Behind fiction books. I haven't read them, I studied the source of the theory.
Where did the Secret Christian Rapture Theology come from? In 1830 a 15 year old Scottish Girl named Margaret McDonald claimed to have had some visions. One of them was of a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. (She was already familiar with Ribera’s teaching of the seven years of tribulation). Her Presbyterian pastor Edward Irving (1792-1834), who was a forerunner of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements, spoke at prophecy conferences in Dublin Ireland at Powerscourt Castle and promoted the doctrine of the Secret Rapture as per her vision.
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a minister of the Church of Ireland and who later became a member of the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted the Secret Rapture doctrine, after attending the same Powerscourt Bible Prophecy meeting in 1830, where he learned of Margaret McDonald’s vision.
Darby altered Margaret’s views and then taught them as his own. He developed “futurism” into a system of prophetic teachings called “dispensationalism” which had the Secret Christian Rapture at its centre. He visited Margaret McDonald at her home in Scotland and then later went to America several times in the 1850s and 1860s, where this Secret Christian Rapture theology had started gaining a large acceptance.
Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921) was greatly influenced by the teachings of Darby and incorporated this false doctrine into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, published by Oxford University Press in 1909. One million copies had been printed by 1930, firmly establishing this Futurist theory into different denominations and Bible schools in the 20th Century.
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:47:25 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 4, 2007 10:47:25 GMT -5
There's NO MORE WASTING TIME with you on this issue!!
There are consequences!
King James Version: Revelation Chapter 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
False Prophet. FOOL....LIAR and Witch! You are irrelevant!
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:48:51 GMT -5
Post by brandon on Apr 4, 2007 10:48:51 GMT -5
FOOL....LIAR and Witch! You are irrelevant! But she does have employment.
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:57:36 GMT -5
Post by espy on Apr 4, 2007 10:57:36 GMT -5
FOOL....LIAR and Witch! You are irrelevant! But she does have employment. LOL!!! and again with the name calling...
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 10:58:22 GMT -5
Post by espy on Apr 4, 2007 10:58:22 GMT -5
Come on Dale, it is like you have a "Heart of Glass"! this thread is starting to make me feel old..
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 11:05:06 GMT -5
Post by dixiepixie on Apr 4, 2007 11:05:06 GMT -5
FOOL....LIAR and Witch! You are irrelevant! Still waiting on that proof of these things you keep saying.....Oh, and the comments you keep hearing from the voices in your head don't count as proof... *NOTE TO SELF* Contact Bryce Hospital and find out why they are wasting money on internet access when lawman OBVIOUSLY needs his meds far more than he needs internet access.
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 11:10:40 GMT -5
Post by espy on Apr 4, 2007 11:10:40 GMT -5
lawman, the more you keep this up the more irrelevant you are making yourself.......
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 11:13:56 GMT -5
Post by lawman on Apr 4, 2007 11:13:56 GMT -5
Typical of you weak, wimpy ignorant ways, Miss Demon!!
Someone needs to call your employer...THE STATE OF ALABAMA.... about your posting on this forum all-night while being paid by 'tax-payers $$$$$$!
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 11:15:56 GMT -5
Post by blondie on Apr 4, 2007 11:15:56 GMT -5
The rapture theory didn't start with the Left Behind fiction books. I haven't read them, I studied the source of the theory. Where did the Secret Christian Rapture Theology come from? In 1830 a 15 year old Scottish Girl named Margaret McDonald claimed to have had some visions. One of them was of a Secret Rapture of believers before the appearance of the Antichrist. (She was already familiar with Ribera’s teaching of the seven years of tribulation). Her Presbyterian pastor Edward Irving (1792-1834), who was a forerunner of the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements, spoke at prophecy conferences in Dublin Ireland at Powerscourt Castle and promoted the doctrine of the Secret Rapture as per her vision. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), a minister of the Church of Ireland and who later became a member of the Plymouth Brethren, also promoted the Secret Rapture doctrine, after attending the same Powerscourt Bible Prophecy meeting in 1830, where he learned of Margaret McDonald’s vision. Darby altered Margaret’s views and then taught them as his own. He developed “futurism” into a system of prophetic teachings called “dispensationalism” which had the Secret Christian Rapture at its centre. He visited Margaret McDonald at her home in Scotland and then later went to America several times in the 1850s and 1860s, where this Secret Christian Rapture theology had started gaining a large acceptance. Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921) was greatly influenced by the teachings of Darby and incorporated this false doctrine into the notes of his Scofield Reference Bible, published by Oxford University Press in 1909. One million copies had been printed by 1930, firmly establishing this Futurist theory into different denominations and Bible schools in the 20th Century. I'd like to see a rapture believer respond to this. Also this: www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/3958/hal1.htm
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 11:18:01 GMT -5
Post by dixiepixie on Apr 4, 2007 11:18:01 GMT -5
Typical of you weak, wimpy ignorant ways, Miss Demon!! Someone needs to call your employer...THE STATE OF ALABAMA.... about your posting on this forum all-night while being paid by 'tax-payers $$$$$$! I think you made this threat once before. Harassment is illegal in the state of Alabama. Do you really feel like going there?
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Rapture
Apr 4, 2007 11:30:09 GMT -5
Post by brandon on Apr 4, 2007 11:30:09 GMT -5
Someone needs to call your employer...THE STATE OF ALABAMA.... about your posting on this forum all-night while being paid by 'tax-payers $$$$$$! If it's not a waste of taxpayer money, the complaint will go nowhere. I was a 911 dispatcher in my college days and there's lots of down time. If she's posting while nothing is happening, it doesn't waste tax money or government resources. It's equivalent to flipping through Sports Illustrated while waiting on an emergency call to come through.
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