tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Mar 26, 2007 1:28:41 GMT -5
Hey Blondie, I read somewhere that you couldn't get anyone to argue religion with you Well, I'm just bored enough to do it. Actually, I like to discuss things more than argue them This is also in response to Brandon's message in another thread that if Blondie were to create a thread along these lines then he would speak with him/her (what are you anyway Blondie? LOL) about it. Anyway, I thought I might start with this question..... Is there such a thing as absolute right or absolute wrong?
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Post by blondie on Mar 26, 2007 9:33:32 GMT -5
Hey Blondie, I read somewhere that you couldn't get anyone to argue religion with you Well, I'm just bored enough to do it. Actually, I like to discuss things more than argue them This is also in response to Brandon's message in another thread that if Blondie were to create a thread along these lines then he would speak with him/her (what are you anyway Blondie? LOL) about it. Anyway, I thought I might start with this question..... Is there such a thing as absolute right or absolute wrong? I don't believe so, but it depends on what you mean by "right" and "wrong" Also what you mean by "god." Which god do you believe in? If you define God as all good and all powerful then either God or evil can't exist.
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Post by brandon on Mar 26, 2007 10:42:26 GMT -5
This is also in response to Brandon's message in another thread that if Blondie were to create a thread along these lines then he would speak with him/her I'll get back when I have more time to write.
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 26, 2007 13:22:14 GMT -5
I don't believe so, but it depends on what you mean by "right" and "wrong" How does what you "believe" depend on what someone else "means"? You answered the question with your first four words....why did you feel a need to equivocate?
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Post by blondie on Mar 26, 2007 14:17:51 GMT -5
I don't believe so, but it depends on what you mean by "right" and "wrong" How does what you "believe" depend on what someone else "means"? You answered the question with your first four words....why did you feel a need to equivocate? Um, There is need to define terms. Otherwise you'll go on forever not knowing exactly what the other person is talking about.
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Post by W.O.M.I on Mar 26, 2007 14:46:46 GMT -5
But the trick is spelling out a definition of various terms and issues on which both parties can agree.
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Post by mamawolf on Mar 26, 2007 15:33:50 GMT -5
Is there a God? Yes!
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Post by blondie on Mar 26, 2007 16:43:31 GMT -5
But the trick is spelling out a definition of various terms and issues on which both parties can agree. Right, also only site sources which both parties agree on. I don't know if that's possible since I can't convince anyone that the EPA, NASA, accredited University Science Departments and the National Academy of Sciences are legitimate sources. That only leaves Wikipedia. And even Wikipedia says: "As more and more evidence was collected and understanding of the processes of evolution improved, evolution became the central organizing principle of biology." This might be a tough one because the evolution debate broke down into attack an attack on science itself.
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 26, 2007 16:52:26 GMT -5
There is need to define terms. You missed the point as usual... You don't need MY definitions to determine YOUR beliefs...
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 26, 2007 16:55:07 GMT -5
You also don't need a "source" to answer a question about your "beliefs."
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Post by phinehas on Mar 26, 2007 16:55:40 GMT -5
"This might be a tough one because the evolution debate broke down into attack an attack on science itself."
So, what, nobody can expect scientists to actually show scientifc evidence? LOL.
"Scientists say this fossil is an example of a transitional species from a fish to an amphibian due to XYZ." Could you show us the evidence for XYZ sir? "Why, no, but we are scientists, so just assume that we are correct." "But why should we do that? Isn't that unscientific"..."Er, yes, but it doesn't apply to us...only to those that have not looked at the evidence and came to the conclusion that it proves evolution!" "But your evidence for evolution comes up rather short and in most cases can be explained in another manner that doesn't contradict the evidence." "Shut up layman...we already decided that the evidence would point to evolution no matter what, even if we have to make it fit by means of speculation or artistic renditions!" "Just look at that watercolor and tell me that half ape, half man, monkey doesn't look real to you!" "But how did the artist come up with that based on a chunk of skull, a feather and a tooth?", "He came up with it because scientists told him what it looked like!", "But what are you basing that on?", "Damn you, stop thinking for yourself and just believe what we tell you!, it's in the science books and on Wikipedia!"
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 26, 2007 17:02:18 GMT -5
This might be a tough one because the evolution debate broke down into attack an attack on science itself. ok...definition time again... "...attack on science..." my guess is that you define that as someone showing that a "declaration" is not science...no matter WHO makes it, if it's not based on experimentation... The question was simple Blondie...and I would say using whatever definition you want to of "right" and "wrong"...do you recognize absolutes of either?? ....seems to me you have already answered, "no"...and the ramifications of that are phenomenal...
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Post by family1st on Mar 26, 2007 18:12:53 GMT -5
Careful Fellas. If Blondie can prove Evolution, I'm sure he's come up with some way to prove God doesn't exist. He just hasn't let us in on it.
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Post by zoomixer on Mar 26, 2007 20:57:54 GMT -5
This might be a tough one because the evolution debate broke down into attack an attack on science itself. ok...definition time again... "...attack on science..." my guess is that you define that as someone showing that a "declaration" is not science...no matter WHO makes it, if it's not based on experimentation... The question was simple Blondie...and I would say using whatever definition you want to of "right" and "wrong"...do you recognize absolutes of either?? ....seems to me you have already answered, "no"...and the ramifications of that are phenomenal... Indeed, this looks like it will be an interesting thread. I'm anxious to see what Blondie has to say on this one. No absolute right or wrong? Wow.........
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Post by zoomixer on Mar 26, 2007 20:59:18 GMT -5
If you define God as all good and all powerful then either God or evil can't exist. I would also love to hear your defense for this statement, Blondie.
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Post by solinvictus on Mar 26, 2007 21:27:31 GMT -5
If you define God as all good and all powerful then either God or evil can't exist. I would also love to hear your defense for this statement, Blondie. .....if God is defined as both all good and all powerful, then the existence of evil in the universe either means that God is not all good and participates in evil or, barring that, God is not all powerful as evil exists and acts independent of His will.
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Post by blondie on Mar 26, 2007 21:44:43 GMT -5
There is need to define terms. You missed the point as usual... You don't need MY definitions to determine YOUR beliefs... You missed the point. If people don't agree on what a word means they can't use it.
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Post by blondie on Mar 26, 2007 22:21:10 GMT -5
I would also love to hear your defense for this statement, Blondie. .....if God is defined as both all good and all powerful, then the existence of evil in the universe either means that God is not all good and participates in evil or, barring that, God is not all powerful as evil exists and acts independent of His will. Right, it's an old Western argument against a very Western concept of god. The traditional reply involves mankind having free will as a higher good. It's amazing nobody knew that. As far as absolute good and evil goes; what would be an example of absolute evil? Maybe torturing innocent children to death? Well, a lot of people are pro-choice. I'm sure they don't consider themselves evil. But what about YHWH? certainly he's absolutely good. He would never kill innocent children. There are lot's of quotes in the OT. Here's a good one: Psalms 137:8-9 - 8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us , he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. And what about shock and awe? All Americans have to take responsibility for that. Plenty of innocent children died during the battle of Baghdad. The torture and murder of innocent children seems like it would be the most obvious example of an absolute evil. Yet it's relative and dependent on the circumstances and the subjective point of view of the person deciding if it's evil. There is an answer to this. I don't agree with it, but I bet nobody knows what it is. Here's a hint: Your subjective system is not the correct one.
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Mar 26, 2007 23:39:47 GMT -5
Is there such a thing as absolute right or absolute wrong? I don't believe so, but it depends on what you mean by "right" and "wrong" The definition of right and wrong that I'm using would be something along these lines. good=morally correct or good, the opposite of evil, adequate to meet a standard of good, beneficial to other people in a totally selfless way wrong=evil, the opposite of good, inadequate to meet the standard of good, destructive or possibly even beneficial in at least a somewhat selfish way. I'm not exactly an English major, but I think you get what I'm talking about. An absolute good or absolute evil that is not determined by the people who are obligated to abide by those standards, but determined by some sort of higher authority....not necessarily an intelligent authority. Regardless of your definition of what this good or evil may be, what I'm asking is if you think such an absolute exists. With that said, I think you probably answered my question anyway. Most atheists and even some theists would answer "no" to the idea of absolutes. My next question to you is this.... Is there anything that you consider to be wrong, such as the killing of an innocent individual (putting aside one's personal definition of "innocent" for a moment)? Basically, do you believe it is wrong to murder?
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Post by phinehas on Mar 27, 2007 0:13:38 GMT -5
".....if God is defined as both all good and all powerful, then the existence of evil in the universe either means that God is not all good and participates in evil or, barring that, God is not all powerful as evil exists and acts independent of His will."
Acting independent of his will is not a result of God not being all powerful, but a result of giving his creatures free will. I have said this before, God wants only people that love him. Love can not be faked or forced. God, in his wisdom, has chosen a specific way for that determination to be freely made by his creation.
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Post by phinehas on Mar 27, 2007 0:36:07 GMT -5
.....as far as Psalms 137. blondie, I think you need to understand something that is very basic. Everything written in the Bible is not condoned by God. Some things written are just the recorded words of men and their actions. If you are going to impugn God, at least have the intellectual honesty to point out HIS words or HIS actions. You either don't understand that or you are doing it on purpose, I suggest you stop either way because it makes you look stupid.
"And what about shock and awe? All Americans have to take responsibility for that. Plenty of innocent children died during the battle of Baghdad.
The torture and murder of innocent children seems like it would be the most obvious example of an absolute evil. Yet it's relative and dependent on the circumstances and the subjective point of view of the person deciding if it's evil."
Children do die in war blondie. To say that our military purposely targeted children or civilians for that matter, is asinine. Torture and murder of children is evil and is NOT subjective.
There are absolutes and they were determined by God, not by man.
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Post by brandon on Mar 27, 2007 0:59:05 GMT -5
I think that's it's very sad that someone would try to prove that there isn't a God. How sorry in your life are you that you feel the need to try and make the rest of us feel like there is no God?
So you don't like God. So you don't feel that the rest of us are correct in our feelings that there is a Supreme Being. Why do you feel in your heart that you have some obligation to convince the rest of us that there is no God? Why do you hate God so?
I'm sure that atheists can understand why they don't believe in God, but why do they feel the need to convince the rest of us that there is no God? Do you have a hankering for hell? I'm not sure why; but it would seem that atheists have a desire for hell.
If you don't believe in God, then FINE. Don't believe. But why try with all your might to try and make the rest of us NOT believe in God? Why is it so important to you athieists that the Christians not believe? What is your purpose? For the life of me I can't understand why you're so adamant about convincing the Christians that their God isn't real.
Why is it your purpose to convince us that there is no Lord? Are you a servant of the devil? If not, then why do you all try so much to make the rest of us believe that there is no Lord?
The only thing that I can figure is that you have a DEATH WISH. You wish to die in the hands of Satan. Why else would you try with all of your might to convince the rest of us that there is no Jesus?
If you really and truly have no belief in the Lord, then why do you wish so much for the rest of us not to believe? Why is it so important to you that we don't believe in the Lord?
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Post by brandon on Mar 27, 2007 1:10:42 GMT -5
Is there such a thing as absolute right or absolute wrong? Yes indeed, Tusker. It's absolutely wrong to kill people. It's absolutely right to save people from murderers. It's absolutely right that I live in a free society. It's absolutely wrong that anyone live in an unfree society. It's absolutely wrong that anyone pay half of their earnings to Ceasar. It's absolutely right that citizens do NOT pay their earnings to Caesar. Of what "grey areas" are you thinking?
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Mar 27, 2007 1:23:52 GMT -5
Is there such a thing as absolute right or absolute wrong? Yes indeed, Tusker. It's absolutely wrong to kill people. It's absolutely right to save people from murderers. It's absolutely right that I live in a free society. It's absolutely wrong that anyone live in an unfree society. It's absolutely wrong that anyone pay half of their earnings to Ceasar. It's absolutely right that citizens do NOT pay their earnings to Caesar. Of what "grey areas" are you thinking? I was asking Blondie that question ;D I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I very much believe in God and Jesus Christ as the Son of God. I'm just taking a very long route to that conclusion in asking Blondie or any other atheist a series of questions.
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Post by brandon on Mar 27, 2007 1:38:47 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I very much believe in God and Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Ok, I apologize. It's a touchy thread and I feel as if this thread is meant to try and discredit my faith. It's ok, really. The disbelievers say that there's no proof of God, but they can't disprove God either. I just wonder why they try so hard to make us believe that our God isn't real...
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tusker
Cog in Training
Posts: 68
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Post by tusker on Mar 27, 2007 1:41:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I very much believe in God and Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Ok, I apologize. It's a touchy thread and I feel as if this thread is meant to try and discredit my faith. It's ok, really. The disbelievers say that there's no proof of God, but they can't disprove God either. I just wonder why they try so hard to make us believe that our God isn't real... Oh, I understand. Actually, the reason I put this thread up was to discuss it(partly because y'all gave me the idea) and also because I want to demonstrate that there is a God....slowly, but surely
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Post by brandon on Mar 27, 2007 2:01:03 GMT -5
Oh, I understand. Actually, the reason I put this thread up was to discuss it(partly because y'all gave me the idea) and also because I want to demonstrate that there is a God....slowly, but surely I forget who the asshole atheist was that posted in the other group, but I shall respond to him... For one... Christians don't CARE that you're an atheist piece of shit (other than to try and save you). Two... If you don't like the fact that I believe in Jesus and love Jesus, then I don't give a shit. None of your atheist beliefs have any bearing on my belief that Jesus performed a lot of miracles and healed a lot of dying people. If you think that a bunch of men sat down and conspired to MAKE UP the Bible, then go ahead and try to believe your conspiracy. It makes you an idiot. How in the hell could anyone think that hundreds of people would conspire to make up a story; and then GET IT ALL RIGHT! I don't know your life experiences, but I've interviewed lots of people about many crimes and TWO people can't get a story straight if it's a lie. Hundreds of people saw Jesus come out of the grave. If it was all a lie, then we'd know it. 3. How can you explain the vast universe? You think that there was a "bang" and then humans existed with the abiilty to see and hear and feel? It happened over a billion years, right? We all just developed eyesight... There were a bunch of sea creatures in the ocean and all of a sudden, they felt the need to "see." If you want to be a friggin' atheist, then fine, as a libertarian, I will recognize your right to be an idiot. But don't try and convince the rest of us that there is no Jesus and that there is no God. We're not falling for your deathwish.
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 27, 2007 2:45:49 GMT -5
If people don't agree on what a word means they can't use it. Oh, really? Then we can no longer use the word "science." or "objective" and many others that you throw around... your standards are very self-centered...but that totally fits someone who does not believe in absolute right or wrong...oops...I just used illegal words again, since we don't agree on the definitions....
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Post by blondie on Mar 27, 2007 6:15:43 GMT -5
Oh, I understand. Actually, the reason I put this thread up was to discuss it(partly because y'all gave me the idea) and also because I want to demonstrate that there is a God....slowly, but surely I forget who the asshole atheist was that posted in the other group, but I shall respond to him... I've made it a point not top insult people personally on forums. Attacking ideas is different. This is why so many atheists keep their beliefs a secret. It's probably hard for Christians to imagine what it's like to be ridiculed for your beliefs. I can't help the fact that I don't believe in magic. But does that stop people like brandon for hating me? No. What is I was applying for a job from someone like brandon? What if he was going over my college application? Forgoing some dramatic incident America will soon be a majority non-religious country like England. Rest assured brandon that most atheists are much more tolerant than most Christians.
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Post by bamagatr on Mar 27, 2007 6:33:12 GMT -5
It's probably hard for Christians to imagine what it's like to be ridiculed for your beliefs. . Not with you here, it isn't...
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