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Post by blondie on May 30, 2007 9:16:32 GMT -5
And that is? Let's see, looking back to the first time they were mentioned: Exodus 20:3 - "You shall have no other gods before Me.
I know what you're getting at but you're off base.
I'm not off base. It's a good point. Christians put Jesus or the Trinity before YHWH.
I know Christians think it's the same God(s). Jews don't. I don't and I doubt Muslims do either.
Have to admit, that one is pretty obscure. The best I've been able to find is something about usury. It has often been viewed as people dishonoring the temple by selling and trading in a place meant for worship
Yeah, whatever happened to usury? Certainly there is an Evangelical rationalization for giving usury the OK. Maybe not. But knowing how the Evangelical mind works they're going to rationalize whatever the societal norms are rather than stop borrowing money.
About faith. I've clearly said many times that all religion is based on revealed truth. There is no way to tell if the revelation is true or not. As soon as you factor in magic anything goes. So religious people take a leap of faith toward whatever religion strikes their fancy.
We Atheists don't do that. We limit ourselves to the evidence and live with a bunch of unknowns.
And no Atheism and confidence in the natural world are not a leap of faith. And no, Atheists can't prove with 100% certitude any negatives, especially supernatural ones.
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Post by kevin on May 30, 2007 18:25:08 GMT -5
And that is? Let's see, looking back to the first time they were mentioned: Exodus 20:3 - "You shall have no other gods before Me.
I know what you're getting at but you're off base.I'm not off base. It's a good point. Christians put Jesus or the Trinity before YHWH. I know Christians think it's the same God(s). Jews don't. I don't and I doubt Muslims do either. What do you have to do with this ;D? Basically what you're saying though is that Christians believe they are putting God first (yes, most "hardcores" say the Triune God) and other religions say we are not. Fair enough if you look at it in that light. Truthfully? Have no idea. Probably an Old Law thing again . I can't say I've ever agreed with anyone that Atheism takes faith. After all, isn't the premise of Christianity (perhaps other religions?) that we have faith in Jesus and God? It would seem natural that unbelief = no faith. I shake my head when I see that statement. I guess they mean that everything we do and believe (or not believe) takes some sort of "faith". I dunno. Like "faith" our car will start or "faith" that the ladder will hold us or "faith" that the fast food burger won't make us sick. So then the reasoning must be that one must have a certain faith that God does not exist. Never really thought about it since I do believe. Therein lies the difficulty of people who debate atheism vs. theism. One person can't really know the thought process of the other. Some have "swapped camps" but you must wonder where their subconscious was the whole time. Plus, since they've embraced one or the other, its hard to go back to a prior time and be objective. See, I used your favorite word .
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Post by blondie on May 31, 2007 11:36:37 GMT -5
Some have "swapped camps" but you must wonder where their subconscious was the whole time. Plus, since they've embraced one or the other, its hard to go back to a prior time and be objective. See, I used your favorite word . It's not hard to become religious, or at least join a religion or at least pretend to. It's got all sorts of rewards. I understand that losing your faith is pretty painful. Especially later in life. You have to face the fact that everyone you know is either nuts or stupid. (Except the few Atheists you know ) I didn't go through that because I grew out of religion in my early teens. About the same time I stopped believing in the Easter Bunny and Santa. I know the above sounds harsh but it's not suppose to. That's just the way we Atheists feel. That's why people get mad at us just for believing like we do. We can't help the conclusions we come to about the natural world.
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Post by kevin on May 31, 2007 19:27:55 GMT -5
It's not hard to become religious, or at least join a religion or at least pretend to. It's got all sorts of rewards. I understand that losing your faith is pretty painful. Especially later in life. You have to face the fact that everyone you know is either nuts or stupid. (Except the few Atheists you know ) Hey, I think some people in it now are nuts and stupid. Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, etc. to name some publicly knowns. Seems to me that if you are struggling with your faith, to lose it would be liberating, would it not? After all, you'd have "won the battle" so to speak. Now if you talk about the process of losing it, I'd imagine so. But I already have an idea what it would be like. I would think that it would be much like my divorce -- you'd likely lose all of your friends, people would look down on you, etc. Which is a shame because you would likely still be very much the same person with some different conditions thrown in. Unless, of course, you DID view all of those people as nuts and stupid. That would be wrong on your part. And it might be them that thought the same of you. It really all depends how you take your "fall". Yeah, but Santa and the Easter Bunny only come once a year. Easier to stop believing in them, especially when you catch your parents being both ;D.
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