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Post by brandon on Jan 23, 2007 11:57:44 GMT -5
Considering that several BILLION babies have been born, I'm not convinced that giving birth is such the horrible experience that some women try to make us men believe. Why would women have multiple children if the experience was that excruciating? I'm sure it sucks to give birth and all, but give me a break.
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Post by galaxygoddess on Jan 23, 2007 12:00:31 GMT -5
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 12:08:43 GMT -5
Your giving an example of a procedure that doesn't have to be done, how is this contradicting the fact that a woman's body is designed for conceiving, carrying a pregnancy and childbirth? A woman's body is perfect the way it is and can not be improved upon.
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 12:12:19 GMT -5
Considering that several BILLION babies have been born, I'm not convinced that giving birth is such the horrible experience that some women try to make us men believe. Why would women have multiple children if the experience was that excruciating? I'm sure it sucks to give birth and all, but give me a break. Besides, it is painful, no doubt but that's the way it is, the way it was meant to be and hopefully the way it will stay. I certainly don't want our world to turn into a Sci-Fi movie with fertilized eggs being housed, developed and "born"in machines.....
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 12:18:54 GMT -5
galaxygoddess,
"Do you have children? Did you give birth to them?"....well?
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Post by galaxygoddess on Jan 23, 2007 12:25:12 GMT -5
I have known a couple of women, my great grandmother (14 kids) who felt no pain and had no clue what all the complaining was about.
I have known woman who equate it to a watermelon squeezed through a lemon.
If all women were designed for child birth, why are there so many C-sections? Why do women still die in child birth and have died in child birth? I wish I had a real number, not only in USA but other countries of woman who has died as a result of child birth. It may be rarer now that medical science has step in. Medical science, not the design of the woman, not God, but human made advances. If humans were such perfect birthing machines, do you think we'd even need hospitals? Wouldn't we just sire litters like dogs or cats? in random cycles?
Seriously. Look at the facts.
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 12:40:23 GMT -5
galaxygoddess,
I don't want to be accused of reading something into your posts, so I will ask again. Once you tell me the answer then I will comment.
Have you given physical birth to children (not metaphysically or any other abstract manner)? Yes or no? Were any of the births not via c-section? Yes or No?
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Post by jayliewow on Jan 23, 2007 12:53:11 GMT -5
I have known a couple of women, my great grandmother (14 kids) who felt no pain and had no clue what all the complaining was about. I have known woman who equate it to a watermelon squeezed through a lemon. If all women were designed for child birth, why are there so many C-sections? Why do women still die in child birth and have died in child birth? I wish I had a real number, not only in USA but other countries of woman who has died as a result of child birth. It may be rarer now that medical science has step in. Medical science, not the design of the woman, not God, but human made advances. If humans were such perfect birthing machines, do you think we'd even need hospitals? Wouldn't we just sire litters like dogs or cats? in random cycles? Seriously. Look at the facts. I can attest that child birth IS quite dangerous. I'm willing to bet my life (how ironic) that were it not for modern medicine, I wouldn't be making this post right now. (Then again, if we weren't so modern there would be no forum on which to post...) I lost 1.5 liters of blood giving birth to my daughter due to complications (vagithingy birth). My maternal grandmother died in child birth bringing her third child into the world. As stated, it is a different experience for all women. For myself, I will never go through it again. I've never been dizzy-headed to the point of "passing out cold" before experiencing child birth. (Yes, I realize this was due primarily to the blood loss but it does not make it any less frightening). Carol Burnette said it best...
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Post by galaxygoddess on Jan 23, 2007 12:55:15 GMT -5
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 13:04:39 GMT -5
Since the men paying attention apparently need some eductation I found these links: www.babycenter.com/refcap/pregnancy/childbirth/177.htmlwww.babycenter.com/videos/view/?vid=1287325&_requestid=148357&_requestid=148357www.babycenter.com/videos/view/?vid=1287325&_requestid=148357&_requestid=148357#videoplayerwww.babycenter.com/dilemmas/And since you seem so insistent on it, on bringing up something I'm not comfortable with discussing, I wasn't able to carry to the full trimester because my body rejected it. It implanted, was developing and then just... quit. Not because of anything I did either. As a matter of fact, with the full support of my family I was prepared for everything, and then my own body changed its mind. My mother has also had 3 seperate miscarriages, again she was fully prepared and she was even excited... twice she carried to near the 6 month mark, once was twins. My "close call" made me educate myself better in forms of birth control. I will not even consider attempting to conceive until I'm 100% armed and ready. Which my husband wants a baby now but I won't even try until we get financially secure and I can go through the proper channels of fertility, but honestly, I could be permanetly unable to bear children. Though honestly I can't complain. This world is too... pitiful, to condem a child to living in at the current moment. I was not in insistent on knowing why you have not gone through childbirth, only wanting to know if you in fact had or not. Your reasons are none of my buisness. I only brought it up because you said my opinion on the matter was not valid because I was a man. That logic would make your opinion not valid "currently". I am sorry for your loss but would add that this "world" has never and will never be what you think it should be. Every child brings hope to this "world".
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 13:06:10 GMT -5
Here is a study done in 2004. It doesn't really bring out anything new on the subject, the number of abortions due to rape being 1% or less of the total...the number due to incest being less than 0.5%....that isn't anything factually new, of course most people are lead to believe the opposite and that those numbers are much higher..anyway what I have in bold is what is interesting and thought provoking. www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf•Opinions on adoption. Respondents were not specifically asked about adoption; nevertheless, it came up spontaneously in both parts of the study. While fewer than 1% of women in the quantitative survey volunteered that they would not consider or did not favor having a baby and giving it up for adoption, more than one-third of interview respondents said they had considered adoption and concluded that it was a morally unconscionable option because giving one’s child away is wrong.
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Post by galaxygoddess on Jan 23, 2007 13:25:34 GMT -5
Here is a study done in 2004. It doesn't really bring out anything new on the subject, the number of abortions due to rape being 1% or less of the total...the number due to incest being less than 0.5%....that isn't anything factually new, of course most people are lead to believe the opposite and that those numbers are much higher..anyway what I have in bold is what is interesting and thought provoking. www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf•Opinions on adoption. Respondents were not specifically asked about adoption; nevertheless, it came up spontaneously in both parts of the study. While fewer than 1% of women in the quantitative survey volunteered that they would not consider or did not favor having a baby and giving it up for adoption, more than one-third of interview respondents said they had considered adoption and concluded that it was a morally unconscionable option because giving one’s child away is wrong.Ow... ow... my brain.. ow. I have stated a number of times that abortion as a form of birth control is wrong. Given the 3, in all honesty, extreme conditions I previously have defended, I still think it is morally inept to have an abortion because you were careless and don't want to take responsibility for your actions. Now, in the case of my sister, who actually SOLD her child, I would have rather she given it to DHR and there be a possibility of the girl finding a good home, than to wind up in the hands of the crazy woman who currently "possesses" her. I believe the person who got pregnant save for the 3, again extreme conditions I previously stated, should have to raise that child yes. I believe they should have to deal with that for the rest of their lives. IF the home life is not secure for that child then they are better off in an adoption center than in the hands of someone who could potentially damage the child either mentally or physically or even emotionally. The thing is, I will defend my opinion as easily as I would defend your right to have your opinion which contradicts mine. I do not think anyone is stupid for opposing my stance on what is such a volatile issue. Yes, I believe that an abortion is playing god, but in the extreme conditions I previously mentioned, who am I to judge in what they decide to do with their own body. Maybe you find that hypocritical, hell maybe even I do, but the point still stands. You cannot tell a person how to live their lives. I cannot condemn someone for taking this action if any or even all of the three conditions I have just mentioned are in some way met.
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Post by tragicpizza on Jan 23, 2007 14:08:19 GMT -5
Pizza- A fair argument and certainly not the worst one I've heard. A question for you though: You state that you are pro-choice. I'd ask where on the pro-choice spectrum you fall. Would you reject any and all restriction on abortion (the "abortion on demand" position) or do you believe that some restrictions (parental/spousal notification, waiting periods, points in the pregnancy after which abortion should be illegal {with medical exceptions though limited}, being informed of what happens to the fetus during an abortion [so-called "fully informed" abortions}, etc.)? The latter, most certainly. I'm much mroe comfortable being identified as "Pro-Life," but the stipulations which have become identified with that label make such a designation inaccurate.
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Post by phinehas on Jan 23, 2007 14:14:40 GMT -5
galaxygoddess,
My last post with the quote from the study wasn't directed at you or your position, etc.
It was to point out the irony of people that have a belief that killing a child is less morally unconscionable than giving that child away for adoption. The thought provoking part is how this concept has been formed in the minds of some people.
I would love to hear somebody logically defend that conclusion.
as far as your comments....
I don't think you are stupid, just misinformed on some basic premises. Why is it that you would have a problem with abortion for birth control purposes? If the baby is just an invading tissue tumor, then motivation ceases to be a factor.
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Post by galaxygoddess on Jan 23, 2007 14:36:51 GMT -5
Because, in this world, if you are actually taking responsibility for your actions you wouldn't have risked the chance. There are dozens of birth control methods and abortion should not be one. You risk your health and your ability to conceive later if you do this damage to your body. Look up the process and the damage caused and then tell me it's as bad as just having the child and giving it up for adoption.
In the cases of rape, health to the mother, or health of the child itself (IE vegetative state) it can be more damaging than actually going through with child birth.
In every other case, you risk less with our own health to continue foreword with the birth, than to be scrapped (lets be vulgar for a minute) out, or sucked out and risk uterine wall tearing.
Under health concerns alone it's a poor choice. Under irresponsible behavior it's even worse because the female learns nothing. They learn "oh hey, who needs to worry about pills or condoms, I'll just go get a quick scrape, or take a quick pill and be done with it, I'll be back out partying in no time!" Why do I know this behavior exists? I've seen it first hand in HIGH SCHOOL. You heard me. High school.
I ran across I think 2 separate girls who made almost an identical statement. They even knew where to go because "they'd done it before" WHAT??? Do you honestly think theyd be flippiant if they had gone through actual childbirth? Hell no.
At a certain point it is just like a mold or a tumor, just rapidly reproducing cells, but when someone acts like the whole damn thing is no big deal, that's where I have a problem with it.
In the three cases, it takes a massive amount of consideration and has a more severe impact on the situation. In the case of rape, it's something a woman will have to endure against her own free will (again if she refuses the morning after pill which is there to prevent this part from happeneing, she take the responsibility on to herself) in the case of life threatening... if the woman had not gone to the doctor in anticipation of the baby she would never know her life was in danger and therefore has to make the desicion. In the case of the severely deformed fetus, it goes back to if the woman had not been anticipating the baby and concerned for it she would not have gone to the doctor in the first place. So now these women who were expecting their baby and wanted to the best for the baby, (verses just starting out, "eh I'll just abort it" ) now have to make the choice of "quality of life". Once the baby is born will its quality of life be acceptable? Most mothers choose to continue on regardless, but they should have the option available to them in the extreme condition.
That is the differnce to me. The conscious between trying to do the best for a growing thing, or just purging the body cause you "feel like it"
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Post by W.O.M.I on Jan 23, 2007 18:30:23 GMT -5
Thankee for the reply, pizza.
I'd have to say that I fall into that same camp as well and I'd further guess that we have a great deal of company if the polls are to be believed (admittedly a very big "if").
But the Left seems very adept at creating a great deal of hysteria when any restriction of abortion is introduced, consistently invoking the spectre of "back-alley abortions" and the like.
For instance, I can't see why anyone would object to a law saying that a minor must either inform her parents when seeking an abortion (or the doctor must) or, if circumstances make that impossible (incest of tangible fear of retribution by a parent), she must petition a judge and present her case to him or her. After all, a minor child can't even get their ears (or other body parts for that matter) pierced without parental notification and approval, why on earth would anyone consider it reasonable that the same aged child can have an abortion without the same restrictions?
Yet NARAL and Planned Parenthood find themselves in the distinctly unenviable position of having to oppose just such restrictions because a portion of their membership believe that ANY restriction on abortion opens the door to banning ALL abortion.
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Post by galaxygoddess on Jan 23, 2007 18:56:38 GMT -5
I fully agree with this statement. Responsibility for your actions. They say children can't be held responsible for their actions but where is that line?
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Post by dixiepixie on Jan 23, 2007 21:56:42 GMT -5
Guys, and ladies, I have three beautiful children. My older two were natural, no meds at all. The little master...Well, let's say he was difficult. 11 days before his due date I had an emergency section because he was 10 lbs 9.5 oz and 21.5 inches long. His head was STUCK in my right pelvic cleft (between my pelvic shelf and my hip socket.) He could not turn into position, and had no amniotic fluid left. If he had been allowed to gain another pound, I could have had a uterine rupture and died. Would I have aborted if I had known how difficult & dangerous it would be? Not no but H E L L no. He and the other two are the light of my world.
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Post by W.O.M.I on Jan 24, 2007 16:46:18 GMT -5
Go to Miami Beach, come back and make that same claim.....
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Post by phinehas on Jan 24, 2007 17:56:06 GMT -5
Go to Miami Beach, come back and make that same claim..... LOL. I was speaking in a physiological manner and not aesthetically for all. That being said, beer and darkness are the great equalizer for those who need it.
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