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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 8:23:28 GMT -5
Challenge: Reconcile the Easter stories.
Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:
What time did the women visit the tomb?
Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1) Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV) Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV) John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)
Who were the women?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1) Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1) Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10) John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)
What was their purpose?
Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1) Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1) Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1) John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)
Was the tomb open when they arrived?
Matthew: No (28:2) Mark: Yes (16:4) Luke: Yes (24:2) John: Yes (20:1)
Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Matthew: One angel (28:2-7) Mark: One young man (16:5) Luke: Two men (24:4) John: Two angels (20:12)
Where were these messengers situated?
Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2) Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5) Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4) John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)
What did the messenger(s) say?
Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7) Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7) Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7) John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)
Did the women tell what happened?
Matthew: Yes (28:8) Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8) Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24) John: Yes (20:18)
When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
Matthew: Yes (28:7-8) Mark: Yes (16:10,11) Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23) John: No (20:2)
When did Mary first see Jesus?
Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9) Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10) John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)
Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
Matthew: Yes (28:9) John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16) Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14) Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36) John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24) Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)
Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17) Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14) Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36) John: In a room, at evening (20:19)
Did the disciples believe the two men?
Mark: No (16:13) Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)
What happened at the appearance?
Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20) Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19) Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51) John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)
Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22) Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)
Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19) Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51) John: No ascension Paul: No ascension Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 8:30:28 GMT -5
A very serious question, that I would like you to honestly answer, blondie:
Why, if you have no faith in God, do you spend so much time trying to discredit Him? How does MY faith (or any other person's faith) make your life any different?
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 8:51:08 GMT -5
A very serious question, that I would like you to honestly answer, blondie: Why, if you have no faith in God, do you spend so much time trying to discredit Him? How does MY faith (or any other person's faith) make your life any different? I read the Bible and found these discrepancies interesting. Most Christens I talk to don't seem to have ever read the Bible. If I had a book on my shelf that I believed had all the answers to life's mysteries I'd read it. Christians that do read the Bible tend to read it with such prejudice as to only look for validation of what they already believe. Clarence Darrow in Why I am an Agnostic argued that Christians don't really believe all that stuff. That seems to be the case in the majority. They just don't think deeply about philosophical issues. The ones who do read and study Christianity and really believe it have to rationalize so much I believe they could rationalize anything. That's why it's so dangerous.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 9:01:07 GMT -5
You didn't answer the question. How does what I do or do not believe affect you, a non believer? Why do you try so hard to discredit faith? It has no bearing on your life if I believe that Athena sprung full grown from the head of Zeus, or if I believe that Christ is the way to Heaven.
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Post by phinehas on Apr 6, 2007 9:30:15 GMT -5
LOL, DP. He doesn't want to answer that. I think there are at least 2-3 possible reasons and definitely one of them is that he is an Internet troll.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 10:08:52 GMT -5
That's OK, phin. I am trying to be good, so I will leave it alone. I proved the point I wanted to make, even if it was only for myself.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 6, 2007 10:43:08 GMT -5
Clarence Darrow in Why I am an Agnostic argued that Christians don't really believe all that stuff. That seems to be the case in the majority. They just don't think deeply about philosophical issues. The ones who do read and study Christianity and really believe it have to rationalize so much I believe they could rationalize anything. That's why it's so dangerous. Then maybe you should avoid us... I agree with dixiepixie's question...and if your answer is that you think our faith makes us dangerous...remember this... These contradictions have been hashed out by many folks....naturally, you think the most objective folks are the ones who agree with you...again...that's OK... As far as our being "dangerous"...if that were the case, "we" would have destroyed "you" hundreds of years ago, so maybe that "danger" is just one of your renowned "smoke screens"...
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 11:21:12 GMT -5
Y How does what I do or do not believe affect you, a non believer? Why do you try so hard to discredit faith? It has no bearing on your life. It makes a big difference. I believe many of America's ills come from Christian fundamentalism. I'd rather see our country head in the direction of non religious Northern Europe than very religious Iran. Christianity blocks freedom and scientific progress at every step. These are two of my favorite things.
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 11:24:05 GMT -5
These contradictions have been hashed out by many folks.... ....to the satisfaction of the very gullible and desperate to believe.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 11:26:49 GMT -5
Y How does what I do or do not believe affect you, a non believer? Why do you try so hard to discredit faith? It has no bearing on your life. Christianity blocks freedom and scientific progress at every step. These are two of my favorite things. I am glad you brought up scientific progress. I have been wanting to ask you something, but it keeps slipping my mind. If there is no difference in fetal stem cells and cord blood stem cells, why don't they just do their research on cord blood stem cells? I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but I wanted your opinion.
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 6, 2007 11:28:51 GMT -5
Christianity blocks freedom and scientific progress at every step. These are two of my favorite things. yet another smoke screen...and pure horse shit...
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 11:45:25 GMT -5
Christianity blocks freedom and scientific progress at every step. These are two of my favorite things. I am glad you brought up scientific progress. I have been wanting to ask you something, but it keeps slipping my mind. If there is no difference in fetal stem cells and cord blood stem cells, why don't they just do their research on cord blood stem cells? I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but I wanted your opinion. Fetal stem cells last longer and can develop into a bunch of different kinds of cells. "Embryonic stem cells can divide for a year or more in a laboratory without becoming specialized cells -- a process called self-renewal. One stem cell can produce hundreds of genetically identical stem cells, which is then called a stem cell line. Most adult stem cells typically can't self-renew for more than a couple of weeks. But the biggest difference in potential between adult and embryonic stem cells comes down to their developmental capacity -- their ability to give rise to other, more mature types of cells. The most flexible type of stem cells are those that are totipotent, which are considered the "master" cells of the body because they contain the genetic information necessary to create all the cells in the body. The fertilized egg is an example of a totipotent cell."
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 11:48:48 GMT -5
Christianity blocks freedom and scientific progress at every step. These are two of my favorite things. yet another smoke screen...and pure horse shit... Are you kidding? Who won't let me drink good beer or gamble? Stem Cell research is another good example. Typical response though. Just act indignant. Why don't you provide examples of Christians advancing science and expanding our liberties?
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 6, 2007 12:36:06 GMT -5
Typical response though. Just act indignant. Why don't you provide examples of Christians advancing science and expanding our liberties? Yes...it is typical for you to play "my list is bigger than your list", because you miss the damn point...again...because you refuse to see that mixing science and atheism is as egregious as mixing science and religion...
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Post by bamagatr on Apr 6, 2007 12:40:03 GMT -5
These contradictions have been hashed out by many folks.... ....to the satisfaction of the very gullible and desperate to believe. ...interesting your use of the words "satisfaction" and "gullible" and "desperate" as if they apply to only one side...
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Post by phinehas on Apr 6, 2007 12:53:25 GMT -5
This is a troll post. He knows the stuff he copies from evilbible.com can be shown to not amount to shit but he posts this stuff anyway. He is a waste of time, not because he asks questions but because he never listens to the answers.
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 13:02:34 GMT -5
I am glad you brought up scientific progress. I have been wanting to ask you something, but it keeps slipping my mind. If there is no difference in fetal stem cells and cord blood stem cells, why don't they just do their research on cord blood stem cells? I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but I wanted your opinion. Fetal stem cells last longer and can develop into a bunch of different kinds of cells. "Embryonic stem cells can divide for a year or more in a laboratory without becoming specialized cells -- a process called self-renewal. One stem cell can produce hundreds of genetically identical stem cells, which is then called a stem cell line. Most adult stem cells typically can't self-renew for more than a couple of weeks. But the biggest difference in potential between adult and embryonic stem cells comes down to their developmental capacity -- their ability to give rise to other, more mature types of cells. The most flexible type of stem cells are those that are totipotent, which are considered the "master" cells of the body because they contain the genetic information necessary to create all the cells in the body. The fertilized egg is an example of a totipotent cell." cord blood stem cells ARE embryonic stem cells. Why do you think it cost a fortune to cryo freeze and bank them? I donated the cord blood after my son was born. It went into a cancer research study.
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 13:20:13 GMT -5
cord blood stem cells ARE embryonic stem cells. Why do you think it cost a fortune to cryo freeze and bank them? I donated the cord blood after my son was born. It went into a cancer research study. I think cord cells are way too old. The good ones have to be snached very soon after the egg is fertilized. Like hours or days on the outside. If you donated I'm sure you know more than I do. My expertise come from a Time magazine article from sometime last year. stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.asp
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 13:26:15 GMT -5
This is a troll post. He knows the stuff he copies from evilbible.com can be shown to not amount to shit but he posts this stuff anyway. He is a waste of time, not because he asks questions but because he never listens to the answers. I've listened to your "answers." Believe me the evilbible.com guy has a better grip on Christianity than you'll ever have. Unlike the apologist fiction you like to quote evilbible dude has most of his facts right. Neither of you are objective, but his understanding is a lot closer to what the real scholars teach. www.evilbible.com/Buy_Beer.htm
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Post by dixiepixie on Apr 6, 2007 13:30:25 GMT -5
cord blood stem cells ARE embryonic stem cells. Why do you think it cost a fortune to cryo freeze and bank them? I donated the cord blood after my son was born. It went into a cancer research study. I think cord cells are way too old. The good ones have to be snached very soon after the egg is fertilized. Like hours or days on the outside. If you donated I'm sure you know more than I do. My expertise come from a Time magazine article from sometime last year. stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.aspIt went for a leukemia study. They (at UAB, I guess, since my doc was on staff there & he asked for the donation) were trying to find a way to grow bone marrow cells from embryonic cord stem cells. They were just going to put it in the incinerator anyway, so I signed the donation papers.
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Post by blondie on Apr 6, 2007 13:33:06 GMT -5
This is a troll post. He knows the stuff he copies from evilbible.com can be shown to not amount to shit but he posts this stuff anyway. He is a waste of time, not because he asks questions but because he never listens to the answers. Did you know the easter stories were so different, there smartypants? If I were a Christian I would have a quick logical comeback about the easter stories that fit right into my world view. That's one reason I'm not a Christian. Because the Bible's filled with this sort of stuff. At least Liberal Christians know that these issues exist.
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Post by phinehas on Apr 6, 2007 15:01:53 GMT -5
Troll. You want me to tell you why you are wrong, but i'm not going to do it. Waste of my time.
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rich
Cog in Training
Posts: 70
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Post by rich on Apr 6, 2007 15:29:25 GMT -5
Crap. I was hoping this thread was about peeps vs. cadbury eggs ...
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Post by blondie on Apr 10, 2007 15:31:29 GMT -5
Well, surprise surprise. Nobody was up to the Easter challenge.
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Post by family1st on Apr 10, 2007 15:52:02 GMT -5
Wow!!! That's the same response that I got from the "TROLL" when asking about evolutionary falsehoods. I just thought "TROLL" was decrepid in mathmatics.
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Post by blondie on Apr 10, 2007 16:08:15 GMT -5
Wow!!! That's the same response that I got from the "TROLL" when asking about evolutionary falsehoods. I just thought "TROLL" was decrepid in mathmatics. Thanks for the insults. I think your hostility comes from being backed into a corner. There's no way in the world you could honestly study evolution and come out thinking it's full of falsehoods. Not if you familiarized yourself with both sides of the debate. Fact: evolution is a science. Any school kid can research it. Fact: the gospels have dramatically different Easter stories. Any school kid can research it.
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Post by family1st on Apr 10, 2007 16:33:22 GMT -5
I think Phineas' nickname for you is completely appropriate. My hostility for you comes from your lies and baseless arguements ie:
1. Evolution is not a science. It is a belief founded on unscientific methodology and circular reasoning for agnostics like yourself to try and prove that God doesn't exist. 2. The Bible isn't full of discrepencies. Good job showing 4 different accounts with 4 different perspectives. Maybe you should try penning the exact minute each verse takes place.
Still waiting for you to answer my questions of mathmactic %'s and problems with the Geological Timetable.
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Post by family1st on Apr 10, 2007 16:40:34 GMT -5
yet another smoke screen...and pure horse shit... Are you kidding? Who won't let me drink good beer or gamble? Stem Cell research is another good example. Typical response though. Just act indignant. Why don't you provide examples of Christians advancing science and expanding our liberties? I already posted a partial list of scientific disciplines and contributions from Creationist Scientists. Where's your list of Atheist/Agnostic Accomplishments???
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Post by espy on Apr 10, 2007 19:14:05 GMT -5
Being as good natured as I am and fairly new to these types of threads I had no idea what phinehas meant when he called blondie a troll so I looked it up. And Ive got to admit that I have egg on my face to playing into heshe's posts. I will say that I love all people, enemies and friends alike. But the past few threads have proven that whoever heshe is has no intention on ever being friendly to anyone. So I have found a definition that for others like myself who are new to forums in general. and before you even go off saying that I am attacking you, remember this, you are the only one here who constantly crashing what would be intelligent discussions with your pseudoscience crap and Bible bashing comments. I will never post a reply to anymore of your posts.
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Post by blondie on Apr 10, 2007 20:12:14 GMT -5
Are you kidding? Who won't let me drink good beer or gamble? Stem Cell research is another good example. Typical response though. Just act indignant. Why don't you provide examples of Christians advancing science and expanding our liberties? I already posted a partial list of scientific disciplines and contributions from Creationist Scientists. Where's your list of Atheist/Agnostic Accomplishments??? Shirley you jest. Here's a partial list. Celebrity Atheist is down. Virtually everyone who has contributed to the advancement of civilization in a profound and original way. skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id14.htmlwww.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htmBill Gates, Dave Barry, Arnold Palmer, Stephen Hawking, etc. etc. etc.
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